Metroscapes
Active Member
That was my first reaction, but it just struck me as too oddly specific.
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Jimvee
New Member
If the tunnels are sinking than Mike Colle shouldn’t be placing blame on the current premier but recognize that the previous Liberal Government, which he was a member of, and their buddies should be held responsible for the poor planning and construction.
Metroscapes
Active Member
Yeah, cause Kathleen Wynne is a soil engineer and she should have known better.
urbancog
Active Member
Agreed, it's absurd to blame a government of any political party for an engineering deficiency. Governments set policy and provide funds, they're not capable of designing or constructing anything.
In Crosstown LRT's case the entire design and construction process was outsourced to a consortium of publicly traded companies https://www.crosslinxtransit.ca/who-we-are/our-parent-companies/. They performed or contracted all detailed design and construction for the system and must be held accountable for delivering a useable system. ACS & Dragados can probably walk away but you'd think EllisDon, AECON and AtkinsRealis would want work from the provincial government in the future. They need to step up and sort this out.
In Crosstown LRT's case the entire design and construction process was outsourced to a consortium of publicly traded companies https://www.crosslinxtransit.ca/who-we-are/our-parent-companies/. They performed or contracted all detailed design and construction for the system and must be held accountable for delivering a useable system. ACS & Dragados can probably walk away but you'd think EllisDon, AECON and AtkinsRealis would want work from the provincial government in the future. They need to step up and sort this out.
duffo
Active Member
You may recall Metrolinx procured the tunnel boring years before they even brought in the Crosslinx consortium (SNC, etc).
From what I understand, this was one of the major failings of this project. The initial tunnelling design provided to bidding consortia was not what was ultimately delivered, and Crosslinx was forced to change their designs to suit.
Jimvee
New Member
No, however the government he was a part of signed off on the team taking on the construction, I’m saying if he’s throwing stones at the government than take a look in the mirror.
urbancog
Active Member
I'd forgotten about the initial tunneling contract; guess I wasn't following as closely back then.
Kenaidan, part of Crosstown Transit Constructors consortium, with Obayashi Canada, Kenny Construction, and Technicore Underground has a reference page on the work, which they say included "extensive instrumentation system to monitor for settlement", so Metrolinx should at least understand the scope of any settlement happening.
An Ontario Govt news item of 17-Aug-2016 stated that tunnelling was complete, with construction started station on 4 stations. Did Metrolinx have a long-term warranty clause in the agreement with Crosstown Transit Constructors that they could enforce after 8+ years? Seems unlikely. If there is a defect in the running-tunnel component, Metrolinx may have to pay for remedial grouting.
To complicate contractual matters, some of the station enclosures were mined around the original running tunnels by a different contractor under the Crosslinx contract. See here.
Kenaidan, part of Crosstown Transit Constructors consortium, with Obayashi Canada, Kenny Construction, and Technicore Underground has a reference page on the work, which they say included "extensive instrumentation system to monitor for settlement", so Metrolinx should at least understand the scope of any settlement happening.
An Ontario Govt news item of 17-Aug-2016 stated that tunnelling was complete, with construction started station on 4 stations. Did Metrolinx have a long-term warranty clause in the agreement with Crosstown Transit Constructors that they could enforce after 8+ years? Seems unlikely. If there is a defect in the running-tunnel component, Metrolinx may have to pay for remedial grouting.
To complicate contractual matters, some of the station enclosures were mined around the original running tunnels by a different contractor under the Crosslinx contract. See here.
nfitz
Superstar
It's not really about who signed off on the construction though. I don't think anyone could forsee what would happen if a contractor didn't meet the specs (unless it's a tunnel issue I suppose, where Metrolinx would be the one holding the bag as Metrolinx was doing the design and testing, rather than the consortium).
crs1026
Superstar
i have to think that the silence is in part attributable to potential legal action.
The contract to build the station (which was never part of the tbm contract - the tbm tunnelling drive from Brentcliffe ended east of Yonge and the station was built by excavation and underpinning) assumed a set of technical data provided by ML. There were media reports that the contractor encountered water conditions that were not expected. That gives the contractor a huge “out” for taking any blame for whatever happened.
It’s possibly repeat of the “Big Becky” Niagara tunnel episode where that TBM encountered rock conditions that were not expected. In that case the contractor and the buyer reached a settlement. The challenge for ML is that any settlement would be a black eye optically.
With operations having reached heavy usage, one has to assume that any deficiencies are not short term challenges.
- Paul
The contract to build the station (which was never part of the tbm contract - the tbm tunnelling drive from Brentcliffe ended east of Yonge and the station was built by excavation and underpinning) assumed a set of technical data provided by ML. There were media reports that the contractor encountered water conditions that were not expected. That gives the contractor a huge “out” for taking any blame for whatever happened.
It’s possibly repeat of the “Big Becky” Niagara tunnel episode where that TBM encountered rock conditions that were not expected. In that case the contractor and the buyer reached a settlement. The challenge for ML is that any settlement would be a black eye optically.
With operations having reached heavy usage, one has to assume that any deficiencies are not short term challenges.
- Paul
stevedean
New Member
Lots of speculation in this group - but no facts to be seen!
So far people have said:
- cracked foundation box
- sinking tunnels
- unexpected water conditions
For once, I'd just like to hear facts instead of speculation....
So far people have said:
- cracked foundation box
- sinking tunnels
- unexpected water conditions
For once, I'd just like to hear facts instead of speculation....
evandyk
Senior Member
We all would! But nobody in the know is producing any facts. Despite the fact that on paper they answer to us.
ElrondHubbard
New Member
Yup. I check in on this thread from time to time, in the hope that knowledgeable people will have insight to provide. But no one is insightful enough to be helpful when actual info is so effectively sealed away.
Our premier is a dunce and a jackass who will do anything for his cronies, while using his position in the most high-handed way possible (hello, notwithstanding clause? hello, bike lanes?) to override the rights and interests of Toronto residents when it suits his prejudices. Meanwhile we're all kept in the dark and fed shit by Metrolinx, who go so far as to produce TV commercials to wag their fingers at us for being utterly infuriated by them.
Meanwhile, with this morning's traffic it took me nearly half an hour to get from Caledonia to the subway on the 32 bus. Anyone got a nice solid wall I can bash my head against?
Sigh. Speculate away, good people, it's all we can do. If we're to gnaw our own limbs off in frustration, well, pass the salt. Back to lurking...
Islington Express Bus
Active Member
We can end the speculation, guys. I have a reliable source who tells me that a portal to hell was discovered under Yonge and Eglinton. This would have been fine, but it wasn't on the original engineering documents.
crs1026
Superstar
LOL As a matter of fact, I have been there and they were in the middle of a rail commuter expansion project that people there said was taking forever.
Not much of a town - the tour of Harold Ballard's house was interesting, but too many Bruins and Ticats fans to feel at home.
- Paul
dowlingm
Senior Member
A forum poster is a bit different than a city councillor. Colle should be and hopefully will be asked to substantiate that. Of course, if he knows only by virtue of information the TTC passed on, this could be a new friction point between Metrolinx and their contractor.