[Asterix]

I understand that there will be a $49 million cancellation fee as the number of LRT cars ordered is near what the city ordered for TC.

But why would there be a cancellation fee on the LRT cars ordered for Eglinton if they haven't been canceled?

What you have proposed is holding off on the construction slated to start in a month or two, redesign the line for Sky Train, cancel the LRT order in place of Sky Train cars, only use the existing SRT yard which isn't anywhere near big enough for the Eglinton line (nor does it have the room to expand) and won't be connected to the part of the line that will be constructed first. Without that connection to the yard, they can't open the line when the central part is completed so that would mean they won't need the Sky Train cars for another few years, meaning Bombardier won't get the revenue until much later than they were planning.

Who exactly is winning in this scenario?

I also don't understand the idea of SkyTrain being propritery.

Who said it was proprietary and why does it matter? Doesn't really matter one way or another since the whole idea of switching from the existing planned LRT implementation to your suggestion, whether proprietary or not, is just asking for significant delays and lots more money.

 

[nfitz]

So correct me if I'm wrong, then obviously the TTC or the city are on the hook for 58 cancelled LRT vehicles?

One would assume - though I'd assume it depends on what they renegotiate. Perhaps TTC would simply take the 58 vehicles anyway (assuming they can resell them), or make a deal that the be constructed to legacy standards instead of Transit City standards and be added to the TTC 204 legacy car order ... who knows.

The biggest issue would be the delivery timeframe, which would have started in 2013, and now could be 5 years or more later. Also I note that TTC are reporting there were 183 ordered not 182.

 

[Amy Rose]

About the $49 M cancellation, that is the absolute minimum as in, best case scenario. Worst case scenario is paying >75% of the cancellation fees from Bombardier et al.

 

[ssiguy2]

The TTC is at the whim of Bombarider regardless of the technology. Bombardier is Toronto and Montreal's only supplier it's just that Montreal is homest enough to admit it while in Toronto they still go thru the meaningless out to tender process for public consumption. This is why I have always thought that SkyTrain being proprietary is a moot point in Toronto.
It wouldn't require any slow down in construction at all over LRT..............everything would be the same except the tracks.
It looks like it's LRT but I just never saw the logic of it but them logic doesn't seem to be the over riding principle in transit planning in Toronto whether it be Miller's plan of having LRT or nothing or Ford's tunnel or nothing.
Anyway you slice it this is still a modest proposal which is what the long suffering commuters of Toronto are use to now.

 

[ssiguy2]

The TTC is at the whim of Bombarider regardless of the technology. Bombardier is Toronto and Montreal's only supplier it's just that Montreal is homest enough to admit it while in Toronto they still go thru the meaningless out to tender process for public consumption. This is why I have always thought that SkyTrain being proprietary is a moot point in Toronto.
It wouldn't require any slow down in construction at all over LRT..............everything would be the same except the tracks.
It looks like it's LRT but I just never saw the logic of it but them logic doesn't seem to be the over riding principle in transit planning in Toronto whether it be Miller's plan of having LRT or nothing or Ford's tunnel or nothing.
Anyway you slice it this is still a modest proposal which is what the long suffering commuters of Toronto are use to now.

 

[Asterix]

This is why I have always thought that SkyTrain being proprietary is a moot point in Toronto.

I still don't get what the relevance is of whether SkyTrain is proprietary or not.

It wouldn't require any slow down in construction at all over LRT..............everything would be the same except the tracks.

LRT will be constructed with low floor platforms and overhead power distribution systems. Is that the same as SkyTrain?

If not, then that means there will need to be rework.

Are you still set in only using the SRT yard? The one that won't be connected to the main part of the line until years after it is completed and won't have anywhere near enough room for the trains?

It looks like it's LRT but I just never saw the logic of it but them logic doesn't seem to be the over riding principle in transit planning in Toronto whether it be Miller's plan of having LRT or nothing or Ford's tunnel or nothing.

A big part of the logic of LRT is that it can be constructed at grade without worrying about the barriers required when you have third rail power systems.

If a new municipal administration comes in four years from now and decides that the people along Finch West deserve better transit, they can revert to the previous plan to put Scarborough in the median ROW and reallocate the savings to Finch.

If somehow the city or province find more money for transit, they can extend the line cheaply, again by not having to tunnel or dig a trench by using median ROW.

Anyway you slice it this is still a modest proposal which is what the long suffering commuters of Toronto are use to now.

I'm pretty sure your modest proposal involves more delays to providing anything for long suffering commuters of Toronto as well as added costs.

 

[ventrems]

Ontario's Minister of Transportation, Kathleen Wynne, will be on TVO's The Agenda tonight 8 pm. She will be discussing the Eglinton LRT.

http://twitter.com/#!/kwynnempp/status/68767574560739328

The Agenda - Broadcast - Federal Results and the Ontario Campaign | Kathleen Wynne: Building Tomorrow's TTC http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=7&bpn=109160&ts=2011-05-12 20:00:00.0

 

[k10ery]

Ontario's Minister of Transportation, Kathleen Wynne, will be on TVO's The Agenda tonight 8 pm. She will be discussing the Eglinton LRT.

http://twitter.com/#!/kwynnempp/status/68767574560739328

The Agenda - Broadcast - Federal Results and the Ontario Campaign | Kathleen Wynne: Building Tomorrow's TTC http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=7&bpn=109160&ts=2011-05-12 20:00:00.0

"The Councillors are going to have to work with the Mayor on [building the Sheppard Subway]." Sounds like Wynne is using code for "we still hope that Council will kill this crazy plan".

 

[Northern Magus]

Or code for "I think he's out of his frigging mind with this pipe dream, so upon their heads be it....."

-and-

"Don't come crying to me when it goes pear-shaped."

 

[gweed123]

One would assume - though I'd assume it depends on what they renegotiate. Perhaps TTC would simply take the 58 vehicles anyway (assuming they can resell them), or make a deal that the be constructed to legacy standards instead of Transit City standards and be added to the TTC 204 legacy car order ... who knows.

The biggest issue would be the delivery timeframe, which would have started in 2013, and now could be 5 years or more later. Also I note that TTC are reporting there were 183 ordered not 182.

Hopefully one of Mississauga, Ottawa, Hamilton, or K-W can use them. Although their openings are all within the same general timeframe, so there would still be the issue of delivery timing.

Would it be cheaper to have the TTC build their yards now, and then have the first batch of LRTs that they ordered (for Sheppard and Finch West) just sit in the yards until the ESLRT is built? At least then the money that they would be spending on the cancellation fees is going to something useful (like building the yard), and not just being pissed down the drain. Under this scenario of course, one of those 4 cities would get the bulk of the cars destined for the ESLRT, to be delivered around the 2019 timeframe.

 

[gweed123]

Or code for "I think he's out of his frigging mind with this pipe dream, so upon their heads be it....."

-and-

"Don't come crying to me when it goes pear-shaped."

But you know that Ford is the puppet master of the intellectually inferior, so he can spin this any way he wants, ESPECIALLY if the shit hits the fan with the Sheppard Subway before the Provincial election. "McGuinty and his cronies don't care about Toronto. They left us to fund the Sheppard Subway on our own. A PC government would give Toronto more transit funding". It doesn't matter if it's true. It doesn't matter if it's complete BS. The un-informed will gobble it up, and you better believe that it will impact the way the lemmings vote.

 

[EnviroTO]

It doesn't matter if it's true. It doesn't matter if it's complete BS. The un-informed will gobble it up, and you better believe that it will impact the way the lemmings vote.

Yes, but at the end of the PC term when GO plans have been scaled back, and the Sheppard subway still doesn't exist Wynne will still be correct. The election is this year. Ford will likely not have the Liberals to blame at the end of his term, not in the federal government, and not in the provincial government. By that time the only transportation projects cutting ribbons will be ones started in the Miller McGuinty era. We will all reminisce about the gravy days.

 

[Rainforest]

Really, the provincial transportation ministry switched to the damage-control mode after Ford has been elected. And IMO, Ms. Wynne did a good job on that.

 

[GenerationW]

"The Councillors are going to have to work with the Mayor on [building the Sheppard Subway]." Sounds like Wynne is using code for "we still hope that Council will kill this crazy plan".

Or code for "I think he's out of his frigging mind with this pipe dream, so upon their heads be it....."

-and-

"Don't come crying to me when it goes pear-shaped."

She was very non-committal on Sheppard (and understandably so), but I got the impression Minister Wynne prefers the current Eglinton plan over the previous Miller-Giambrone one, which makes sense since Metrolinx apparently wanted all of Eglinton (up to Kennedy) underground.

Not sure what her chances would be, but she'd be a fine candidate to run for Liberal leader when McGuinty's time is done.

 

[Northern Magus]

But you know that Ford is the puppet master of the intellectually inferior, so he can spin this any way he wants, ESPECIALLY if the shit hits the fan with the Sheppard Subway before the Provincial election. "

Hyperbole aside, I don't think there's any cause for concern here: the EA and preliminary design aren't going to come out befor Labour Day, and the Ford Brothers already own this so it won't be an election issue since (a) the Grits won't be funding it, and (b) Hudie's crew won't either.

I'd say the earliest time for this to unravel would be in the new year, tho more likely 2013ish.


Further thought: the more interesting question for me is whether the Ford Brothers will wear any construction delays and cost overruns to either Eg or Shep.

Really, the provincial transportation ministry switched to the damage-control mode after Ford has been elected.

Well ..... after finishing their giant, collective facepalm.