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I think funding for ion 2 should be contingent on waterloo adopting presto,. Same with guelph for all day go
I will say no as there are far better systems out there. Never supported Presto from day one and never will.

Having used a number of transits smart card system while in Europe now, found a number a lot easy to use and buy.

No system should be tie to Presto for funding as it cost more than the old fare collection system on all levels,
 
There may be better systems in existence than Presto, but the fact of the matter is that is what we have, and we should aim to maximize our usage of it as best possible. This is a conversation we should've had when Presto was first being proposed, not now.

Introducing another fare card system would surely cost more than implementing an existing system onto smaller transit systems, and would make the passenger experience more inconvenient, not less. If we want to introduce something new, let's drag this region kicking and screaming into the 2010s and allow payment of fares via credit or debit cards and eliminate the need to carry a presto card at all, otherwise don't bother.

Making funding contingent on implementing Presto is extremely reasonable if our aim is to make travel by transit as convenient as possible for as many groups of people as possible, instead of sticking it to the Presto man.
 
There may be better systems in existence than Presto, but the fact of the matter is that is what we have, and we should aim to maximize our usage of it as best possible. This is a conversation we should've had when Presto was first being proposed, not now.

Introducing another fare card system would surely cost more than implementing an existing system onto smaller transit systems, and would make the passenger experience more inconvenient, not less. If we want to introduce something new, let's drag this region kicking and screaming into the 2010s and allow payment of fares via credit or debit cards and eliminate the need to carry a presto card at all, otherwise don't bother.

Making funding contingent on implementing Presto is extremely reasonable if our aim is to make travel by transit as convenient as possible for as many groups of people as possible, instead of sticking it to the Presto man.
Amsterdam has one system while Rotterdam has another, yet only 30 minutes apart in the same country. The same goes for Germany where Hamburger is one while Frankfurt is another. Germany currently has the 9 euro monthly pass that can be use on any system in it. Even Italy Rome and Milano systems are different.

Funding "SHOULD Not Be Tie" to the Presto system "PERIOD".

What does a system do when ML charges X 5% fare collection fee in the beginning only to see it balloon to 9% years later and 4% more over straight fare collection??

Why is TTC looking at another system now when their contract comes up for renewal in 4 years??

It maybe great to have one card for X area, but at what cost???
 
Amsterdam has one system while Rotterdam has another, yet only 30 minutes apart in the same country. The same goes for Germany where Hamburger is one while Frankfurt is another. Germany currently has the 9 euro monthly pass that can be use on any system in it. Even Italy Rome and Milano systems are different.
You know, just because Europe does something doesn't automatically mean it's the right thing to do. I spent a week in NYC and a bit of philly where you have Metrocard/OMNY for the NYC Subway, Liberty Card for PATH, Septa Key for Phily except Patco, Another fare card exclusive to Patco, and NJT and all of the NYC Regional Raillines that each have their own fare system. You know what? I like having 1 fare card even if it isn't ideal. That's still only 1 card to keep track of, refill, and only 1 card that takes up space in your wallet exclusive for transit. One of the best perks of Presto is not only the fact that it's accepted in the entire GTHA, but also the fact that it's accepted in Ottawa. The fact that I can go to Ottawa as well as bring my friends to Ottawa and they can all use the same card they already use on a regular basis is amazing.

That being said I will agree with you that Metrolinx doing things like tying funding with Presto adoption as a way to compensate for how bad Presto is isn't a good thing - however I also don't think that this should be a green light to already work on replacing Presto entirely. The transition to Presto wasn't exactly the smoothest especially with the TTC lagging behind, and I fear that making a completely brand new "Presto 2" (or would it be Presto 3?) is basically asking to introduce the same issues that are currently being faced in NYC with OMNY, where we're going to have some agencies don't feel like upgrading, or use the opportunity to just do their own thing (I'm looking at you Ottawa) - resulting in an even more confused mess of a payment system.
 
New systems funding shouldn't be tied to having to adopt to Presto, but it should at least be accepted if your system intersects with an existing system that accepts Presto.


Presto is far from perfect, but as someone that used multiple systems on most days, it's way better than having to worry about tickets and tokens for separate systems and having to go out of my way to stock up again.
 
Other than Translink, I'm struggling to find good North American examples of a big city that does that. Even New York City has a different agency for one of the subway lines in Manhattan - not to mention across the river. Seattle too operates their LRT through different governments - not to mention their commuter trains. Montreal has several agencies.

The problem many fear is the lack of decent service standards in a regional agency that isn't beholden to locally elected oversight. That off-peak some of their subway service only goes every 20 minutes is a disgrace. It will be interesting to see how the Hamilton and Hurontario LRT frequencies compare to Line 5 and Line 6. Though it's not clear just who is going to be operating those lines - are those cities even paying operating costs?

New York is not a good example for modern transit planning.

Apparently it's to match the current rapid transit train colors (subway), instead of it being red and white. It's also to distinguish that it'll be more "rapid" and not local like the streetcars downtown.

Even though the speeds will quite likely not be all that. different in many places.
 
Amsterdam has one system while Rotterdam has another, yet only 30 minutes apart in the same country. The same goes for Germany where Hamburger is one while Frankfurt is another. Germany currently has the 9 euro monthly pass that can be use on any system in it. Even Italy Rome and Milano systems are different.
What exactly is the argument that you are making here? Toronto and Kitchener-Waterloo will never be a pairing that is equal to Rome and Milano, so the sooner we accept that, the sooner we can have discourse within the parameters of what is rather than what we'd like to see.

Secondly... so? What does the lack of fare integration with various European cities have to do with us? We can't do something because Europe also doesn't do it?
Funding "SHOULD Not Be Tie" to the Presto system "PERIOD".

Counter argument: implementing Presto would make the transit system more accessible and user friendly to visitors from areas where Presto is already widely implemented, such as tourists, students, or even people who work in another place beside their hometown.

If a region doesn't want to help integrate their transit system with the rest of the province, why exactly should the province open their pocket books for them?

What does a system do when ML charges X 5% fare collection fee in the beginning only to see it balloon to 9% years later and 4% more over straight fare collection??

There are three separate arguments that I see here. The first one is that the nature of transit means that it is unfeasible for them to run their operations from operating revenues alone, and the results with or without a Presto surcharge are not enough to run any transit system of an appreciable scale. This argument is also a compelling one against having other expensive features in a transit system where something analog would be cheaper, such as digital destination signs or air conditioning. We need sufficient political funding for this to not be a concern.

Moreover, as much as this may be a problem, it is not something that should be of any concern to the clients of the service. It is an internal issue and needs to be sorted out accordingly. All the client sees is that their extremely convenient fare card, which they can use for travel in much of southern Ontario, is no good for the system in question, and their perception of the system rightfully goes down in estimation.

Finally, Presto was not the only solution I mentioned. Having payments via debit or credit cards is another state of the art solution we in the region have failed to implement, and companies like VISA collect less charges on a transaction than Metrolinx does with Presto. Do you think that if we adopted some European fare card system, the provider wouldn't collect their own fees? It is the cost of running the organization. How many big box stores do you see around that only accept cash? If the profit driven private sector can figure this out, why can't public transit organizations?


Why is TTC looking at another system now when their contract comes up for renewal in 4 years??
The TTC in the post Byford era is one of the worst run organizations on the continent, so I'm not sure how much weight I should ascribe to this information. Furthermore, in typically Torontonian style, I expect that whatever solution they will end up adopting to replace Presto will be some in-house designed, barely functional boondoggle that will run way over budget instead of something useful like credit/debit based fare payments.

It maybe great to have one card for X area, but at what cost???
Such is the cost of running a modern, integrated, user friendly transit system. Everything costs something, even your much lauded European fare cards cost something to develop and implement. The simplest and cheapest solution is to have only cash fares, but that would be insane.
 
Such is the cost of running a modern, integrated, user friendly transit system. Everything costs something, even your much lauded European fare cards cost something to develop and implement. The simplest and cheapest solution is to have only cash fares, but that would be insane.
Reject Modernity, Embrace Tradition.

Let's go back to TTC Tokens 🥳
 
Why is TTC looking at another system now when their contract comes up for renewal in 4 years??

The TTC in the post Byford era is one of the worst run organizations on the continent, so I'm not sure how much weight I should ascribe to this information. Furthermore, in typically Torontonian style, I expect that whatever solution they will end up adopting to replace Presto will be some in-house designed, barely functional boondoggle that will run way over budget instead of something useful like credit/debit based fare payments.
Probably to get a better deal with Presto I don't really see the province just letting the TTC switch to another system when they have so much invested in it especially since it's planned that the Ontario line will use Presto and I don't think the TTC wants to have people pay different fares within their own stations.
 
They might as well test in the 3-car configuration though - to make sure it functions that way too.
I suspect that's exactly it. I'd be very surprised if they are running 3-car trains in operation, particularly since the TTC is pushing for higher frequencies on the line from opening day.

That said, the 3-car trains certainly make it look more like an actual metro line and not just a streetcar.
 
Did I miss a memo? I thought they were gonna run with 2 car trains, not 3

The Crosslinx contract probably has language specifying the system must function with 3 car trains. It's would then behove Crosslinx to prove that out in some way so they aren't caught with their pants down when 3 car service is required.
 
A little bit of weirdness going on the TTC twitter service account today, mentioning Line 5, probably testing out alerts.


Which have since vanished.
 

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