[officedweller]

They can reduce cost in ways one might not think.

For example, in the Canada Line, they reduced cost, by meeting the design specs, and only building the platforms 50 metres long (with 40 metre long trains), seriously compromising future expansion (by contrast, the Eglinton line trains will be over 90 metres long). They also reduced cost by doing the construction in a way that it seriously messed up Cambie for a couple of years - rather than doing it in less intrusive, but more expensive ways, like planned on Eglinton.

And of course there was all the foreign labour that was brought in from Asia and paid relatively low wages. Something a government agency would never do.

Note that the Canada Line 40m trains are 3.0 m wide (same width as a TO subway car).
So instead of the 80 m SkyTrain Bombardier MKII that is 2.6 m wide, you have a different vehicle used to meet the capacity specification (15,000 ppdph).
I think the CrossTown LRT vehicles are 2.6 m wide, aren't they?

The shorter platform also allowed shallower gradients between some stations (i.e. Olympic Village Station and Broadway - City Hall Station), which in turn allowed stations to be closer to the surface and cheaper to construct. Longer station platforms would mean digging level sections of track deeper "into the hillsides" so the guideway and next station may be very deep - adding to station excavation costs.

The winning bidder also chose to build the tunnel under one side of Cambie, not down the median, meaning lower utility relocation costs and that allowed a longer tunnel. The other bidder (Bombardier) didn't think of that and proposed an open trench guideway south of 49th Ave.

One question would be whether the CrossTown is too far along to allow a DESIGN, build, finance, opeate and maintain contract. If the line is built to uneconomic specifications (like Sheppard) then that may deter bidders.

 

[GenerationW]

If Toronto was competent, it would budget for both.

Toronto can't fund projects that big unless Queen's Park and/or Ottawa are on board. All Toronto can do is establish priorities and hope the funding comes through sooner rather than later.

 

[nfitz]

Note that the Canada Line 40m trains are 3.0 m wide (same width as a TO subway car).

While Canada Line trains are 3 metres wide, that's still 5% narrower than a Toronto subway car. And over 70% shorter trains.

So instead of the 80 m SkyTrain Bombardier MKII that is 2.6 m wide, you have a different vehicle used to meet the capacity specification (15,000 ppdph).
I think the CrossTown LRT vehicles are 2.6 m wide, aren't they?[/quote]No, they are 2.65 metre wide. If we pretend the vehicles are rectangles, the area of a 40 m by 3 m wide, train is 120 m². The Eglinton LRT would be 90 m by 2.65 m which is 239 m²; almost double the capacity of the Canada Line trains (if we pretend capacity is directly proportional to area).

One question would be whether the CrossTown is too far along to allow a DESIGN, build, finance, opeate and maintain contract. If the line is built to uneconomic specifications (like Sheppard) then that may deter bidders.

Very good question if it's too far along. TTC seems to be set to start tending tunnel construction soon, and they've already tendered the portal construction and design contracts. Hard to see if any PPP bidding on this would have any leway in design at all - which is how money was saved in Vancouver. I'd think they've passed the point where there's any saving in money to be found that would exceed the huge profit margins that a PPP would require, and might as well just keep going with the current method.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Toronto can't fund projects that big unless Queen's Park and/or Ottawa are on board. All Toronto can do is establish priorities and hope the funding comes through sooner rather than later.

we have done that waiting game for the past 15 20 years. I guess it's time for a city sales tax and road tolls.

 

[EL72]

From today's G&M: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...out-of-commission-for-4-years/article2262616/

Same old... but the incompetence of the TTC is becoming embarrassing imo.

Scarborough SRT to be out of commission for 4 years
By PATRICK WHITE
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

After Pan-Am games, Scarborough's line will be down until 2019

The city's budget problems have thrown long-term transit planning into such disorder that even TTC head Gary Webster is having difficulty sorting it out.

At a budget meeting on Tuesday, Mr. Webster said Scarborough's decrepit SRT line will be down for seven years between 2015 and 2022 while it's replaced with new cars that will form the eastern leg of the Eglinton-Scarborough line.

He reiterated the point to reporters after the meeting. But he re-emerged from a short huddle with TTC and the mayor's office staff to correct himself.

"I was wrong," he said. "It is 2019 that the SRT will be back up and operational."

It was the first time the TTC has publicly placed a timeline on its plan to overhaul the rickety line, set to be shut down after the Pan-Am Games. Mr. Webster acknowledged that he's not altogether happy with the scenario.

"We're going to drive people away from transit, there's no question," he said, adding that a fleet of buses will pick up the slack.

Under former mayor David Miller's Transit City plan, the line was scheduled to be rebuilt by 2015. When Rob Ford came to power last year, he cancelled Transit City and signed a deal with the province to plow most of the funds it had committed to Mr. Miller's plan into an $8.3-billion crosstown line beneath Eglinton Avenue.

The city still needs $4.2-billion for a subway line along Sheppard Avenue, and is looking to the province, the private sector and an array of development charges for the funds.

The TTC's budget uncertainty didn't end there.

Mr. Webster admitted the TTC has only enough buses to last until the fall of 2013 under its current maintenance standards.

Plans to build a dedicated bus lane along Finch Avenue also appear financially shaky. "That will be pretty challenging considering the significant capital constraints that we've got," Mr. Webster said. "We currently don't have any capital money."

Councillor Peter Milczyn attempted to inject some certainty into the transit budget with a motion asking city staff to consider guaranteeing city hall's TTC subsidy for the next two years, while also imposing annual 10-cent fare increases through to 2014.

"Give that direction up front for three years and everybody knows what they're doing," Mr. Milczyn said. "The TTC staff can plan properly and the public isn't on pins and needles wondering about a fare hike."

 

[11th]

If the elevated structures have to be torn down and rebuilt, why are they so insist on sticking with the existing ROW? It's too bad they can't do an elevated routing via Danforth Road-McCowan. That would've allowed them to keep the SRT open during construction.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

11th:

Probably a lot less regulatory issues - you will probably need a lengthy EA for any other route. Plus cost - which is constrained.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

11th:

Probably a lot less regulatory issues - you will probably need a lengthy EA for any other route. Plus cost - which is constrained.

AoD

It was mentioned in the other thread (which should probably be merged into this one), that it may be a possibility to purchase a few DMUs and run them along the Stouffville line between Kennedy and Agincourt (probably adding in some temporary stations at Lawrence and Ellesmere).

The capital cost of purchasing a few DMUs and the operational cost of running the service for 4 years would probably be less than the operating cost of running buses every 2 minutes during peak in order to meet demand.

Just to confirm, GO owns the Stouffville line right? Or at least the section inside of Toronto?

 

[smallspy]

If the elevated structures have to be torn down and rebuilt....

They don't. They will get some work to refurbish them for the next 40 years of service, but nothing so drastic that they need to start from scratch.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

The capital cost of purchasing a few DMUs and the operational cost of running the service for 4 years would probably be less than the operating cost of running buses every 2 minutes during peak in order to meet demand.

With buses, you can use current drivers, garages, infrastructure. With a completely new type of train, you'll have to train operators, provide maintenance facilities (and probably build something, as the O-Train vehicles aren't allowed to operate on mainline tracks), etc.

Though there are certainly precedents. AMT in Montreal operated a temporary commuter train years ago from Du College metro to Repentigny, while the Metropolitan was reconstructed - over 20 years before they started running a regular service on that line.

Webster clearly wasn't briefed well, as initially he said it would be closed from 2015 to 2022; and now he says that it will be 2019 that piece opens. I expect he has confused the start date of construction, rather than the date when service will be suspended. By far the biggest part of the project is the new platforms at Kennedy, can be constructed without suspending service. Much of the structure of the station expansions can also be constructed before service is stopped.

I doubt they've actually even established a proper time-line for the closure yet, and somewhere in the Transit City department, some is hitting his head against the wall about how Webster clearly doesn't understand the project.

 

[Dan416]

As I said in the other thread, this shows that the SRT should have been run into the ground while a Danforth extension on a more conventional routing were built.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It was mentioned in the other thread (which should probably be merged into this one), that it may be a possibility to purchase a few DMUs and run them along the Stouffville line between Kennedy and Agincourt (probably adding in some temporary stations at Lawrence and Ellesmere).

The capital cost of purchasing a few DMUs and the operational cost of running the service for 4 years would probably be less than the operating cost of running buses every 2 minutes during peak in order to meet demand.

Just to confirm, GO owns the Stouffville line right? Or at least the section inside of Toronto?

All of it.

 

[tabeesh]

Preliminary Design for Bathurst Station and feedback site:

http://www.thecrosstown.ca/news-media/whats-new/online-consultation-bathurst-station

The lack of a downloadable PDF of the presentation is quite annoying - it forces users to stay online to read the document.

AoD

I sent a comment into their liaison staff to see if they could post a PDF and lo and behold they actually did. Have a look: http://www.thecrosstown.ca/news-media/whats-new/online-consultation-bathurst-station .

 

[W. K. Lis]

How many MORE buses and DRIVERS will they need? Weren't they told to reduce? Isn't it more expensive to use buses and drivers?

 

[nfitz]

How many MORE buses and DRIVERS will they need? Weren't they told to reduce? Isn't it more expensive to use buses and drivers?

Presumably any additional money necessary to buy buses, and operate a replacement service would come out of Metrolinx funding for the project. Might even be in TTCs favour, if they get the buses after it's all over.