[drum118]

I think what's more likely is that the line will be adapted to be fully grade-separated at some point in the future. Drivers will absolutely cause major issues by running in to LRVs.

As noted, not going to happen in your lifetime, if at all. Would be faster to build it underground as you only need a year of construction to do the switch over compare ripping out the line and build the elevated section.

I guess you don't know what is under the current ROW today that will play a large part of staying as is??

 

[APTA-2048]

This line will always operate as an LRT as that's what it's been designed for from the outset. Asides from the vehicles which will change once the current LRVs reach the end of their life, the line itself wont be replaced in anyway. Ontario Line trains will be high floor models, while Crosstown line vehicles will always be a low-floor design.

If they want a capacity boost, they could look for a future train design that is not 100% low floor. It would be custom, but we could get a trainset that has both high floor sections and accessible low floor sections.

 

[NoahB]

I find it amusing that people pretend the city never replaced lines before. Lines 1 and 2 used to be streetcars. Eglinton and Finch are being switched from busses. The TTC and city council botched the Scarborough RT Mark II upgrades which got the SRT switched to Subway TRs in a tunnel. The likelihood is very small that the Crosstown would be changed but it does exist. It is even smaller during the 30-year maintenance contract. But that is not forever.

The Crosstown might not switch to high floors. (As much as I wish they would) But it could be grade separated over time or as a big project. LA is incrementally grade-separating parts of LRTs now. Melbourne elevated 8km as part of their level crossing removal project for their suburban 'metro' rail in a right of way that was narrower than Eglinton in Scarborough. They didn't even need to shut down the line while building literally on top of it. Tokyo is a famous example of their lines being upgraded over time to be fully grade separated and high capacity. These things are possible. The only thing needed is civil and political will.

When the West Extention opens Eglinton Line 5 will be 19km grade-separated and 9km on street. That is more grade-separated kilometers than the length of the Ontario Line.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

If they want a capacity boost, they could look for a future train design that is not 100% low floor. It would be custom, but we could get a trainset that has both high floor sections and accessible low floor sections.

Or they could just get longer light rail vehicles.

One Flexity Freedom is 30.8 m in length. Two car train would put that to over 60 m, but with couplers between the two cars.

Budapest is using a URBOS 3 CAF that is 55.9 m in length.

 

[ARG1]

I find it amusing that people pretend the city never replaced lines before. Lines 1 and 2 used to be streetcars. Eglinton and Finch are being switched from busses. The TTC and city council botched the Scarborough RT Mark II upgrades which got the SRT switched to Subway TRs in a tunnel. The likelihood is very small that the Crosstown would be changed but it does exist. It is even smaller during the 30-year maintenance contract. But that is not forever.

The Crosstown might not switch to high floors. (As much as I wish they would) But it could be grade separated over time or as a big project. LA is incrementally grade-separating parts of LRTs now. Melbourne elevated 8km as part of their level crossing removal project for their suburban 'metro' rail in a right of way that was narrower than Eglinton in Scarborough. They didn't even need to shut down the line while building literally on top of it. Tokyo is a famous example of their lines being upgraded over time to be fully grade separated and high capacity. These things are possible. The only thing needed is civil and political will.

When the West Extention opens Eglinton Line 5 will be 19km grade-separated and 9km on street. That is more grade-separated kilometers than the length of the Ontario Line.

The City never had to refurbish existing underground stations and tunnels to support high floor platforms though.

 

[Dan416]

I find it amusing that people pretend the city never replaced lines before. Lines 1 and 2 used to be streetcars. Eglinton and Finch are being switched from busses. The TTC and city council botched the Scarborough RT Mark II upgrades which got the SRT switched to Subway TRs in a tunnel. The likelihood is very small that the Crosstown would be changed but it does exist. It is even smaller during the 30-year maintenance contract. But that is not forever.

The Crosstown might not switch to high floors. (As much as I wish they would) But it could be grade separated over time or as a big project. LA is incrementally grade-separating parts of LRTs now. Melbourne elevated 8km as part of their level crossing removal project for their suburban 'metro' rail in a right of way that was narrower than Eglinton in Scarborough. They didn't even need to shut down the line while building literally on top of it. Tokyo is a famous example of their lines being upgraded over time to be fully grade separated and high capacity. These things are possible. The only thing needed is civil and political will.

When the West Extention opens Eglinton Line 5 will be 19km grade-separated and 9km on street. That is more grade-separated kilometers than the length of the Ontario Line.

When did LA give their lines letters (just noticed the purple line is now referred to as the D line).

 

[DirectionNorth]

I find it amusing that people pretend the city never replaced lines before. Lines 1 and 2 used to be streetcars. Eglinton and Finch are being switched from busses. The TTC and city council botched the Scarborough RT Mark II upgrades which got the SRT switched to Subway TRs in a tunnel. The likelihood is very small that the Crosstown would be changed but it does exist. It is even smaller during the 30-year maintenance contract. But that is not forever.

... at the time of the Line 1/2 upgrades, the cost of construction was much cheaper than today.

Scarborough Subway Extension is a bondoogle, an overexpensive project meant to further the government's political goals.

In neither of those examples was existing infrastructure (track, platforms, catenary, etc.) retained, but rather, a new system built. Could we re-jig the ELRT for a metro? Yes, but by 2050, building a parallel line will be better value for money.

The Crosstown might not switch to high floors. (As much as I wish they would) But it could be grade separated over time or as a big project. LA is incrementally grade-separating parts of LRTs now. Melbourne elevated 8km as part of their level crossing removal project for their suburban 'metro' rail in a right of way that was narrower than Eglinton in Scarborough. They didn't even need to shut down the line while building literally on top of it. Tokyo is a famous example of their lines being upgraded over time to be fully grade separated and high capacity. These things are possible. The only thing needed is civil and political will.

Centinela Grade Separation is not a convincing example, $500 million for a single grade separation along a brand-new LRT line.

It's possible, just very expensive, and we have plenty of places to put extra capital dollars (if it was burning a hole in our collective pockets, which it isn't).

When did LA give their lines letters (just noticed the purple line is now referred to as the D line).

Los Angeles renamed their Metro, LRT, and BRT lines around 2019-2020.

 

[Amare]

I find it amusing that people pretend the city never replaced lines before. Lines 1 and 2 used to be streetcars.

The Scarborough RT is getting replaced because it's literally crumbling apart and that's entirely on the city. I dont see Metrolinx allowing the Crosstown to fall into such a state of disrepair.

Eglinton and Finch are being switched from busses.

To upgrade a line from bus to LRT/subway is entirely different discussion. We've replaced the Bloor-Danforth line from streetcar operations to heavy rail...in an entirely different political climate. I think those days are long behind us in Toronto.

The Crosstown might not switch to high floors. (As much as I wish they would) But it could be grade separated over time or as a big project. LA is incrementally grade-separating parts of LRTs now. Melbourne elevated 8km as part of their level crossing removal project for their suburban 'metro' rail in a right of way that was narrower than Eglinton in Scarborough. They didn't even need to shut down the line while building literally on top of it. Tokyo is a famous example of their lines being upgraded over time to be fully grade separated and high capacity. These things are possible. The only thing needed is civil and political will..

Toronto is not LA or Tokyo, as you saw with the Scarborough RT debacle, it's clearly not easy for this city to replace a rail line that's literally about to crumble away. Not even talking about replacing/upgrading a rapid transit line which is at capacity. In any case Metrolinx holds all the cards with the Crosstown line, and I dont see them upgrading this line asides from the 3rd train we'll see once the line builds ridership through demand.

 

[CapitalSeven]

It's more accurate to say the Scarborough line is crumbling because it's being replaced. The city dithered for years on what to do with it. It could easily have been maintained and then adapted to a new generation of light metro or light rail. But because the decision was to replace it with a subway, it was allowed to fall apart.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Instead of upgrading Line 5 in the future an alternate heavy duty line could approximate its route, like a GO Midtown line, particularly if it’s a TTC line.

 

[drum118]

It's more accurate to say the Scarborough line is crumbling because it's being replaced. The city dithered for years on what to do with it. It could easily have been maintained and then adapted to a new generation of light metro or light rail. But because the decision was to replace it with a subway, it was allowed to fall apart.

First of all, you got to thank Bill Davis for forcing the SRT onto TTC when TTC only wanted to build a high speed streetcar line with some branches.

Than thank the city for going after the Pan Am games as TTC was planning on replacing the SRT with an LRT at the time. Then there ML that needs to be thank for pushing the plan down the road as they felt the line wouldn't be open in time for the Pan Am games. Then there are the Scarborough Councilors who sat on TTC commission board who pouch on the delay to go after the subway plan knowing full well about the extra cost to built it, as well operate it, the extra time to builds it so they could reelected.

Because of ML screw ups, Line 5 cannot be extended like it was supposed to that you will have to change trains to go east of west of Kennedy.

The best you will see on line 5 is an 3 car train every 90 seconds.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Instead of upgrading Line 5 in the future an alternate heavy duty line could approximate its route, like a GO Midtown line, particularly if it’s a TTC line.

From link.
With a few more stations added to the GO Midtown, it would be the "express" rapid transit between Line 2 and Line 5. Not everyone wants to go downtown, some may want to bypass it. Maybe connect with a VIA high speed train station away from downtown, to reduce congestion around Union Station.

Ottawa is finally on board with plan to modernize passenger rail in Canada​

See link.

The idea of faster passenger rail service has been on the minds of central Canadian politicians ever since France introduced its train à grande vitesse, or TGV, leading to more than a dozen feasibility studies on high-speed rail funded by the federal, Ontario and Quebec governments over the past three decades.

But without the population density of some European countries, or their willingness to pump massive operating subsidies into high-speed rail service, efforts to bring fast trains to the Quebec City-Windsor, Ont., corridor have never left the station.

In 2015, Via Rail Canada, the federal Crown corporation that provides passenger rail service across the country, decided to switch tracks by abandoning the fast-train idea in favour of its proposal for a high-frequency rail, or HFR, network in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor that accounts for almost all its business.

If Via could not make the economic case for high-speed rail, it argued that investing in dedicated electric tracks for its trains would at least ensure they would run on time, all while slashing their carbon footprint.

Indeed, Via has been at the mercy of the freight railways that own the tracks on which its trains run. That is the main reason the passenger rail service has a horrendous on-time performance record. Just 56 per cent of its trains arrived on schedule during the first nine months of this year. During the peak summer period, the rate was 47 per cent.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government was slow to get on board with the HFR idea. But its creation last week of a new entity charged with soliciting proposals from private partners to build and operate a HFR network between Quebec City and Toronto (a Toronto to Windsor leg would have to wait) suggests Ottawa is now serious about moving forward with an ambitious plan to modernize passenger rail service.

Transport Minister Omar Alghabra said the new entity, Via HFR, is “now well-positioned to lead the biggest Canadian infrastructure project of the century.” In naming Via HFR’s first three directors, including Robert Prichard as chairman, Mr. Alghabra effectively removed responsibility for the HFR project from Via itself. Mr. Prichard’s first task is to recruit a chief executive officer for the new unit that will oversee a formal request for proposals next year. The union representing 2,400 Via employees accused Ottawa of seeking to privatize Via’s core operations, and it was not entirely wrong about that.

The new unit’s creation, which had long been in the works, helps explain the departure of Via Rail CEO Cynthia Garneau last May. Ottawa has not named a permanent replacement. Martin Landry, Via’s chief commercial affairs officer, has been serving as interim CEO.

The HFR project was originally proposed by Ms. Garneau’s predecessor, Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, who left Via in 2020 to become CEO of Siemens Mobility Canada. In 2018, Siemens won a $989-million contract to provide 32 train sets to replace Via’s aging fleet of cars in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. The new bimode train sets are configured to operate with either diesel locomotives or on electrified tracks.

That contract marked the beginning of a series of major cash injections by Ottawa in the passenger rail service. This year’s federal budget provided $397-million over two years to advance the HFR initiative. That is on top of hundreds of millions more from Ottawa to cover Via’s ballooning operating losses since the pandemic. Via posted a $281-million operating loss in 2019. The deficit surged to $416-million in 2020 and to $371-million last year. In the first nine months of 2022, Via lost $345-million.


Mr. Alghabra last year suggested the price tag for the HFR project could run between $6-billion to $12-billion, but no one really knows for sure. Ottawa wants private operators to bear most of the upfront capital costs in exchange for “downside protection” against future operating losses. Indeed, Ottawa will likely need to provide continuing subsides to the private operators to ensure they can earn a return on investment and keep ticket prices affordable.

Federal documents also refer to the potential for upside risk for Ottawa in the event the project turns a profit. But that is a remote possibility. Passenger rail service is a highly subsidized endeavour almost everywhere, especially where it competes with air travel.

France has attempted to boost rail travel, and cut carbon emissions, by banning short-haul flights on routes where train service is available in under 2½ hours. But the move affects only a few flights between Paris Orly Airport and Lyon, Nantes and Bordeaux. Travellers can still fly to those cities out of Paris’s Charles-de-Gaulle Airport, and often for less than the price of a train ticket. As a result, France’s Société nationale des chemins de fer received €18.5-billion ($26.8-billion) in state subsidies last year alone, or about €275 for every French resident.

HFR will require big subsidies to get off the ground. But the alternative – an antiquated rail service whose trains are always late – could prove even more costly for Canada.

 

[NoahB]

The City never had to refurbish existing underground stations and tunnels to support high floor platforms though.

You can look up the term 'premetro'. The Crosstown can be considered one if you squint hard. But it wasn't built with conversion to high floor in mind. So grade-separating the surface section, if that ever happens, will be low floor probably.

... at the time of the Line 1/2 upgrades, the cost of construction was much cheaper than today.

Scarborough Subway Extension is a bondoogle, an overexpensive project meant to further the government's political goals.

Compared to today. But that is not relevant. They considered it expensive at the time and still did it. There are multitudes of projects currently in Toronto that are expensive but are being done for political reasons as you said.

In neither of those examples was existing infrastructure (track, platforms, catenary, etc.) retained, but rather, a new system built. Could we re-jig the ELRT for a metro? Yes, but by 2050, building a parallel line will be better value for money.

I don't particularly disagree that is a better value. But we are building the Ontario Line/Relief Line right now to reduce congestion on Line 1. We still needed the ATC and Bloor-Yonge upgrades because the line will still be at capacity after relief. Eglinton Line 5 could also reach that point. And the measly 15k per hour ultimate capacity for the crosstown will one day not be enough.

Centinela Grade Separation is not a convincing example, $500 million for a single grade separation along a brand-new LRT line.

These things can get cheaper if built intelligently and in bulk. For the REM it cost only 7 billion to build 67 km of track including 21.5km elevated, 26 fully enclosed stations, 5 km of tunnel rehabilitation, a giant OMSF, and 212 train cars.

It's possible, just very expensive, and we have plenty of places to put extra capital dollars (if it was burning a hole in our collective pockets, which it isn't).

Sure. But the gov isnt behaving like that in the transit file. They are not playing a zero-sum game even if they pay lip service to it as the PCs.

 

[NoahB]

The Scarborough RT is getting replaced because it's literally crumbling apart and that's entirely on the city. I dont see Metrolinx allowing the Crosstown to fall into such a state of disrepair.

Reading how we got to this point would make you laugh and cry. The SRT is crumbling because the City could not decide on how they want to rehabilitate the SRT a project that was gimped by political fighting. But it didn't need to be this way. The Vancouver Skytrain and the SRT are the same tech. They even opened the same year. The difference is that the trains on the Skytrain were upgraded since it opened in 1985 but the SRT was left to crumble. Toronto had a plan to upgrade the SRT in the early 2000s to Mark II trains along with an elevated extension to Melvern. But things like smaller tunnels and tight curves (purpose-built deficiencies by the province to stop the city from using streetcars on the SRT) made the cost look large at the time. (now it is laughably small at 500 million compared to the SSE's 3-6 billion) City infighting on whether to switch to streetcars, update to Mark II, or extend the subway paralyzed the file for decades. Now we reached the end of life for the equipment and they chose to dismantle the line and build a subway extension at their leisure. A big point for the subway extension plan was to prevent a multi-year shutdown of the SRT. Now that is happening regardless. There is no technical reason why they can't just still upgrade the SRT line today with a full shutdown. But the mood shifted and the subway plan become preferred politically.

To upgrade a line from bus to LRT/subway is entirely different discussion. We've replaced the Bloor-Danforth line from streetcar operations to heavy rail...in an entirely different political climate. I think those days are long behind us in Toronto.

The current climate is to build more grade-separated transit using ways to reduce costs (avoid tunneling under rivers/sharing corridors etc). Metrolinx seems more ready to break the status quo these days with Ford's blessing. (Ontario Line) It is fair to say the climate is different than in the 50s and 60s.

Toronto is not LA or Tokyo, as you saw with the Scarborough RT debacle, it's clearly not easy for this city to replace a rail line that's literally about to crumble away. Not even talking about replacing/upgrading a rapid transit line which is at capacity. In any case Metrolinx holds all the cards with the Crosstown line, and I dont see them upgrading this line asides from the 3rd train we'll see once the line builds ridership through demand.

You are right, we will wait and see. The thing is that the city has no say anymore in these matters. Metrolinx is more receptive than the city to consultant-pitched ideas. And these days these ideas are very standardized outside of the US/Canada to favor grade-separated metro systems. (from my perspective at least. I come to this conclusion from watching basically all new subway systems in Asia and Europe looking the same now.) But you are right. This is all speculative and only time will tell.

My whole argument is you can't say that the Crosstown cannot be upgraded. Nobody expected the OL nor the REM and now they are under construction capping decades of dithering.

 

[eglinton1661]

From the recently updated Eglinton Complete Street Project website:

eglintonTOday Complete Street Project

City Council has approved the installation of eglintonTOday Complete Street Project on Eglinton Avenue West between Bicknell Avenue and Mount Pleasant Road. A copy of the Staff report is available at IE13.2 In 2014 City Council approved the Eglinton Connects Planning Study which articulated...

www.toronto.ca

According to Metrolinx, construction-related activities and equipment on the roadway will be removed by the end of April 2023, with the exception of Cedarvale Station (Allen Road interchange) and the section between Avenue Road and Yonge Street, which are anticipated to be completed in the summer of 2023.