[T3G]

They are, after all, testing.... maybe the point of the exercise is simply the number of vehicles on a controlled headway rather than full speed operation?

When I have been out that way, I have certainly observed single tramsets running at respectable speeds.

Maybe there is more to come.

- Paul

It would be nice if people here waited until the line was actually opened and they had a chance to actually observe its operations rather than making quick value judgements based on short Twitter clips.

 

[Coolibop]

It would be nice if people here waited until the line was actually opened and they had a chance to actually observe its operations rather than making quick value judgements based on short Twitter clips.

This is the world we live in (unfortunately):

It would be nice if people here waited until the line was actually opened and they had a chance to actually observe its operations rather than making quick value judgements based on short Twitter clips.

 

[PL1]

Looks a lot faster than 22 km/hr in that video above. I doubt the average would even be as low as 22 km/hr between Leslie and Kennedy. And probably similar to the subway over the whole line, hitting the low 30s.

I would assume 22 km/h figure would include time at stations/stops

 

[felix123]

There have been so many test videos to date showing line 5 being operated like a streetcar on the surface section that it's hard to believe it will run at a speed most riders would consider rapid. Why the LRT doesn't appear to be running anywhere close to the speed limit is confusing to me. But I do think it will be a much nicer experience than the bus in any case.

Finch West / line 6, which is a 10.3 km line, will take 34 minutes end to end. That's an average speed of only 18km/h. So hopefully line 5 will run a lot faster along the grade-separated sections to make up for the slow surface section.

 

[HookInMouth]

How many people want their cell phone number in a phone book today?

- Paul

I was thinking about this the other day, with the number of scam calls you get anyways now, its probably come full circle where the phone book might actually be worthwhile again in the event someone actually does need to contact you these days.

 

[smallspy]

There have been so many test videos to date showing line 5 being operated like a streetcar on the surface section that it's hard to believe it will run at a speed most riders would consider rapid. Why the LRT doesn't appear to be running anywhere close to the speed limit is confusing to me. But I do think it will be a much nicer experience than the bus in any case.

Finch West / line 6, which is a 10.3 km line, will take 34 minutes end to end. That's an average speed of only 18km/h. So hopefully line 5 will run a lot faster along the grade-separated sections to make up for the slow surface section.

Those clips out there don't show every single train. And every single train is being operated by a different operator, that may have a different set of criteria upon which they feel comfortable running right now.

I have seen trains crawling along at barely more than walking speed. I have seen trains that flew past us as if we were standing still. Based on only those limited observations, I would think that it is silly to declare only one of those the correct one.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

Finch West / line 6, which is a 10.3 km line, will take 34 minutes end to end. That's an average speed of only 18km/h. So hopefully line 5 will run a lot faster along the grade-separated sections to make up for the slow surface section.

I don't recall anyone promising a bullet tram.

We don't have the detailed calculations in hand, but my observations suggest the line has been built with adequate track speed, but considerable impediment at intersections due to the traffic signalling and the need to observe station stops. To date, when I have seen trams testing, they seem to consistently assume fairly lengthy platform stops, simulating a worst-case load/unload scenario. There are certainly hints that the line has been timed cautiously, and it will after all be the TTC operating it.

It's quite likely that the line may operate slowly at first, leading to customer and public pressure to do better. That pressure may be more effective than us transit wonks crying about it ahead of time - the line may have to be a work in progress.

The other part of the issue for me is that there is very little provision for pedestrians crossing over at other than major arteries, ie pedestrian crossings are very far apart. The new Eglinton is far from a walkable street. The temptation to take short cuts is out there. We may not want 80 km/hr line speeds, as nice as that may sound on paper.

- Paul

 

[felix123]

I don't recall anyone promising a bullet tram.

We don't have the detailed calculations in hand, but my observations suggest the line has been built with adequate track speed, but considerable impediment at intersections due to the traffic signalling and the need to observe station stops. To date, when I have seen trams testing, they seem to consistently assume fairly lengthy platform stops, simulating a worst-case load/unload scenario. There are certainly hints that the line has been timed cautiously, and it will after all be the TTC operating it.

It's quite likely that the line may operate slowly at first, leading to customer and public pressure to do better. That pressure may be more effective than us transit wonks crying about it ahead of time - the line may have to be a work in progress.

The other part of the issue for me is that there is very little provision for pedestrians crossing over at other than major arteries, ie pedestrian crossings are very far apart. The new Eglinton is far from a walkable street. The temptation to take short cuts is out there. We may not want 80 km/hr line speeds, as nice as that may sound on paper.

- Paul

What's been promised is a "rapid transit" line (source: https://www.metrolinx.com/en/projects-and-programs/eglinton-crosstown-lrt ).

I think the aggregate of test videos shows a fairly slow operating speed, and that is the only evidence we have so far. Anything else is just hopeful speculation.

That said, hopefully one day it will be objectively rapid, but that will require a change in traffic and operations management first.

 

[nfitz]

I would assume 22 km/h figure would include time at stations/stops

OP was referring to the actual velocity. Not the average.

 

[Amare]

One thing i've been thinking about recently is how overloaded to surface stops will get in the future once development settles in on the eastern portion of the line. Stops like Wynford are side platforms and they are due to see massive amount of development around it.

So while the underground stations will be able to accommodate higher loads due to wide centre platforms, some of the surface stops will see loads that may just exceed their capacity. And just imagine when there are service disruptions, it's going to be entertaining to see how bad the situation will get. Sure trains will have their lengths extended, but how will the surface stations accommodate high pedestrian counts.

Anyways that's just food for thought, and things we'll have to be concerned about in 15-20 years.

 

[felix123]

One thing i've been thinking about recently is how overloaded to surface stops will get in the future once development settles in on the eastern portion of the line. Stops like Wynford are side platforms and they are due to see massive amount of development around it.

So while the underground stations will be able to accommodate higher loads due to wide centre platforms, some of the surface stops will see loads that may just exceed their capacity. And just imagine when there are service disruptions, it's going to be entertaining to see how bad the situation will get. Sure trains will have their lengths extended, but how will the surface stations accommodate high pedestrian counts.

Anyways that's just food for thought, and things we'll have to be concerned about in 15-20 years.

Good point.

One good thing about Line 5 however is that it will at least have enough capacity to handle increases over the projected initial ridership for some time. The Ontario line should further relieve congestion on the eastern segment too.

 

[MisterF]

One thing i've been thinking about recently is how overloaded to surface stops will get in the future once development settles in on the eastern portion of the line. Stops like Wynford are side platforms and they are due to see massive amount of development around it.

So while the underground stations will be able to accommodate higher loads due to wide centre platforms, some of the surface stops will see loads that may just exceed their capacity. And just imagine when there are service disruptions, it's going to be entertaining to see how bad the situation will get. Sure trains will have their lengths extended, but how will the surface stations accommodate high pedestrian counts.

Anyways that's just food for thought, and things we'll have to be concerned about in 15-20 years.

You have to remember that we're going to have a lot more options when that area is built out, including the Ontario Line and upgraded Stouffville Line. That will reshape travel patterns around the city. I would imagine that a lot of east end Line 5 riders will transfer at Kennedy or Science Centre stations to get downtown. That should relieve a lot of crowding that would otherwise develop.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

You have to remember that we're going to have a lot more options when that area is built out, including the Ontario Line and upgraded Stouffville Line. That will reshape travel patterns around the city. I would imagine that a lot of east end Line 5 riders will transfer at Kennedy or Science Centre stations to get downtown. That should relieve a lot of crowding that would otherwise develop.

Where passengers enter hardly depends on where they plan to exit, there may still be too many commuters originating near surface stops in the morning. But yes ideally there will be a balanced split of commuters who go east to Kennedy vs. west to Science Centre.

 

[afransen]

One thing i've been thinking about recently is how overloaded to surface stops will get in the future once development settles in on the eastern portion of the line. Stops like Wynford are side platforms and they are due to see massive amount of development around it.

So while the underground stations will be able to accommodate higher loads due to wide centre platforms, some of the surface stops will see loads that may just exceed their capacity. And just imagine when there are service disruptions, it's going to be entertaining to see how bad the situation will get. Sure trains will have their lengths extended, but how will the surface stations accommodate high pedestrian counts.

Anyways that's just food for thought, and things we'll have to be concerned about in 15-20 years.

I suppose if that kind of crowding of platforms becomes a regular occurrence, they could add station attendants that would manage the flow of people into the station. Overcrowding would cause longer dwell times as it takes longer for people to get off and put of the way.

 

[smallspy]

What's been promised is a "rapid transit" line (source: https://www.metrolinx.com/en/projects-and-programs/eglinton-crosstown-lrt ).

I think the aggregate of test videos shows a fairly slow operating speed, and that is the only evidence we have so far. Anything else is just hopeful speculation.

That said, hopefully one day it will be objectively rapid, but that will require a change in traffic and operations management first.

Again, getting hung up on language. Rapid is not an absolute term, it's a relative one.

Will it be faster that the bus route that it is replacing? Yes. Will it be faster than a car? Maybe. It probably depends on the time of day and traffic conditions.

Dan