generalcanada
Senior Member
note that the crosstown guys also sued the ttc for the same exact reason back in May 2023
It quietly went away
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It quietly went away
nfitz
Superstar
Have the past Crosstown legal issues gone away? It took years after TYSSE to be dealt with, didn't it.
Heck, TTC still has TYSSE as an open project.
Heck, TTC still has TYSSE as an open project.
generalcanada
Senior Member
"gone away" as in never to be brought up again? definitely not. The whole contract was supposed to be structured so that legal issues dont happen until after project completion
Amare
Senior Member
Not necessarily the same from my understanding of it.
Finch West lawsuit is tied directly to an operation dispute with Mosaic claiming they are supposed to be operating the Finch West line, not the TTC. So if it's tied to an operational issue, it would most certainly impact when the line could begin operations. Of course Metrolinx could just ignore it, which wouldnt help their fight in court (unless the issue is settled out of court).
Toronto LRT woes: Finch West lawsuit underway, Eglinton Crosstown won’t open before 2025
Mosaic Transit Group filed a lawsuit against the Ontario government over talks involving the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) and Metrolinx.
toronto.citynews.ca
Eglinton had a couple lawsuits, the latest was Crosslinx was claiming that the TTC was making numerous requests and inputs that go above and beyond their contractual responsibilities and it was causing the project timelines/costs to be affected. They were claiming that Metrolinx was not doing their "job" in reigning in the TTC and that was a breach of contract.
nfitz
Superstar
I believe you are wrong about that. The link doesn't mention anything about Mosaic operating the line.
From the article, it looks like the issue is about details in the operational agreement with TTC, which Mosaic wasn't involved in. I don't know what those are, but it almost sounds like there are areas where neither TTC nor Mosaic appear to be responsible for - but that's speculation.
A lot more than a couple. I tried to find information on a particular one once, and I couldn't find it, because there were dozens if not hundreds of cases that Crosslinx was involved in.
hawc
Senior Member
All jokes aside, it really is amazing to me that none of the Canadian news organizations have uncovered what the delay is really about.
It's not a matter of national security. Nor are news orgs bound by legalities until something is before the courts.
Why have none of the news outlets come up with anything?
This feels like exactly the kind of thing Toronto Life or Macleans would do a big cover story on.
There are lots of people out there who know what it's delayed. No one will leak it?
It's not a matter of national security. Nor are news orgs bound by legalities until something is before the courts.
Why have none of the news outlets come up with anything?
This feels like exactly the kind of thing Toronto Life or Macleans would do a big cover story on.
There are lots of people out there who know what it's delayed. No one will leak it?
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Amare
Senior Member
Part of the dispute (not the entire dispute) involves the TTC operating the line:
A legal challenge, launched in early August by Mosaic Transit Partners, claims Metrolinx “breached its contractual obligations” by entering into a separate operator contract with the TTC to run the line which, the consortium believes, is “inconsistent” with the original construction agreement signed with the province.
The core of the dispute:
At the heart of the dispute: the relationship between Mosaic, Metrolinx and the involvement of the TTC.
The lawsuit argues that when Metrolinx entered into a contract with the TTC to operate the Finch West LRT when it opens, it excluded the builders from those conversations. As a result, Mosaic argues, the TTC has been failing to fulfill key tasks that the operator has to undertake before the line can be complete — with no accountability measures in place
The agreement reached with the TTC, the lawsuit alleges, is “grossly deficient and inconsistent,” with the original contract Mosaic signed, and “imposes virtually no obligations upon the TTC.”
‘Delays, dysfunction and ballooning costs’: Finch West LRT enters court battle | Globalnews.ca
The legal challenge claims Metrolinx "breached its contractual obligations" by entering into a separate operator contract with the TTC to run the line.
globalnews.ca
nfitz
Superstar
The issue is the interrelationship between the TTC and Mosaic, once operations start (presumably in demo mode - aka test running).Part of the dispute (not the entire dispute) involves the TTC operating the line:
A legal challenge, launched in early August by Mosaic Transit Partners, claims Metrolinx “breached its contractual obligations” by entering into a separate operator contract with the TTC to run the line which, the consortium believes, is “inconsistent” with the original construction agreement signed with the province.
The core of the dispute:
At the heart of the dispute: the relationship between Mosaic, Metrolinx and the involvement of the TTC.
The lawsuit argues that when Metrolinx entered into a contract with the TTC to operate the Finch West LRT when it opens, it excluded the builders from those conversations. As a result, Mosaic argues, the TTC has been failing to fulfill key tasks that the operator has to undertake before the line can be complete — with no accountability measures in place
The agreement reached with the TTC, the lawsuit alleges, is “grossly deficient and inconsistent,” with the original contract Mosaic signed, and “imposes virtually no obligations upon the TTC.”
‘Delays, dysfunction and ballooning costs’: Finch West LRT enters court battle | Globalnews.ca
The legal challenge claims Metrolinx "breached its contractual obligations" by entering into a separate operator contract with the TTC to run the line.
Reading between the lines, I get the impression that (as with the case with Crosslinx) that Mosaic wasn't expecting to have to deal with TTC inspecting everything to their own standards. and applying their safety requirements.
I assume that Metrolinx's competency (or lack of it) in legal contracting will once again be their undoing with these cases.
pmacpherson68
New Member
Folks who today are able to just hop on Lawrence east or leaside busses at eglinton station are going to be pissed that they will have to take an additional LRT to just get to their bus.
kaptrice
New Member
Maybe this is minor, but there are some really mundane things. Systems integrations tests proceeded a lot slower than scheduled because of inefficient scheduling, etc.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Work has started on the existing unpaid fare hallway at Kennedy station. I was at it this afternoon and it's been blocked off with signs saying that they are working on it for the crosstown line
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cplchanb
Senior Member
wait theyre only starting NOW?? like 4 months after they were supposed to open????!!!!
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Probably more likely that the TTC now has a date that they know they need to have it done by now.wait theyre only starting NOW?? like 4 months after they were supposed to open????!!!!
max
Active Member
I'm not sure of the exact nature of this work but I'm assuming they're just reconfiguring the farepaid areas. That's something they have a lot of recent experience with from the gate changeover and they likely have a lot of confidence in knowing what challenges could arise and therefore don't think it should take long. Also, if the new configuration is harder to navigate for customers accessing line 2, it's better to have waited so they wouldn't be inconvenienced through more of the project.wait theyre only starting NOW?? like 4 months after they were supposed to open????!!!!
Parkdalian
Senior Member
My best guess as to what happened:
-Agreements were made in principle about construction between Crosslinx and ML, and ML and the TTC, and these agreements don't completely line up
-Over twenty years, scope, personnel and technology have changed, changing the actual requirements
-Mistakes, sloppy construction and manufacturing errors gradually accumulated, and there was no clear quality control process for all aspects of construction (TTC has different safety standards than ML and Crosslinx)
-Any changes require costs, and all three partners are trying to shove responsibility for changes onto the other two (hence all the lawsuits)
-Money for the project has largely run out, so everyone is focused on minimizing further expenses
-People are avoiding this project because involvement taints you with the stink of failure
-Dougie wants the opening of the line to happen close to an election call, and he's aiming for a spring 2025 election, so it'll open then.
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