I believe Tridel has their approvals from the City for Hullmark. Tridel usually waits for their buildings to be approved before selling units, which they are doing now. Before approval they accept pre-registrations.

Marcus_A_J,... well, apparently times have changed. I actually asked a city planner why condo buildings are allowed to start selling before they have all city approvals,... I even suggested the city should start taxing developers for units sold before they have approvals. I mean,... well, city of Toronto tax us on everything else,....


One quick question~

When I was talking with Roy, I asked him if Hullmark had all the approvals from the city. His response to me was that, Hullmark is in the same shoe as Bazis and are waiting to see what happens with Emerald Park. Was he just bs'ing his way out of question? or is there any validity in his statement?

Ummer,.... yes and no. Yes, Tridel Hullmark doesn't have all the city approvals,.... and no,... Tridel Hullmark Centre is not in the same shoes as Bazis Emerald Park. According one city planner I spoke to, Tridel Hullmark Centre was rejected by the city,... it's now in OMB stage,... it's been 10 years and counting already.

Bazis Emerald Park is at the city application stage. They haven't gotten a formal approval or rejection from the city yet,.... so they haven't gone to OMB stage.

Bazis Emerald Park is a newborn compared to Tridel Hullmark Centre. As for Tridel Hullmark Centre waiting to see what happens with Bazis Emerald Park :rolleyes: ,.... I think its the other way around,... Bazis Emerald Park is waiting to see what happens with Tridel Hullmark Centre.

In addition, City of Toronto holds trump card on Bazis Emerald Park project,... that little city owned laneway that Bazis Emerald Park needs to build their East Tower on. So regardless of what OMB says on Bazis Emerald Park,... city of Toronto gets final say on whether Bazis Emerald Park will proceed. As far as I know,... the city of Toronto don't have any real trump card on the Tridel Hullmark Centre, the current site is one huge plaza lot owned by RIO-CAN,... thus OMB will get final say on Tridel Hullmark Centre and not city of Toronto.

The city of Toronto does hold a wild card on Tridel Hullmark Centre,... but it's not a trump card that will force Tridel Hullmark Centre to conform to all city of Toronto plans and regulations for the area. The city of Toronto wild card can only delay the start of construction of Tridel Hullmark Centre for a few year,... but can't stop or prevent it.

BTW, Ummer, if you're interested,.... there should be another community consultation meeting for Tridel Hullmark Centre in about 2 months.

NOTE: directly to the east of the Tridel Hullmark Centre site is Minto Garden's Radiance,... phase 1 finished in 2004. Phase 2 -Spring- under construction now. This land was originally Area A (0% residential),... and the city wanted Office space here,... but developer OMB it and got residential condo,... and it's 98m tall,... within 100m limit for the area. Tridel Hullmark Centre will probably use this next door example to help it get residential on it's Area A (0% residential) site at OMB level,... but it'll be tough even for an established and well respected developer like Tridel to get their proposed 164m which exceed the 100m limit.
 
Bazis Emerald Park wants a 6.0 density which exceeds the existing 4.5 for the area.

Oh my god, 1.5 more density! Proposed developments with over 1.2 more density than arbitrarily allowed make my elbows ache, like a coming storm. Maybe we should build a condo at the SW corner of Yonge & Sheppard, next to the Nestle building, with approximately negative ten (-10) density to balance everything out and blend in.
 
The hierarchy that will matter is the transition down to single family houses, which could really come back to bite Bazis if the secondary plan and other precedents around North York Centre are interpreted/followed literally. There's going to at least one person who will have an absolute cow about the prospect of 30 storeys adjacent to 2-3 storeys, as if 18 or 20 storeys next to 2-3 storeys is *so* much better.

The lack of any residential towers in the SW speaks to the flaws and arbitrariness in the secondary plan. There clearly should be more development in the SW, but since the secondary plan boundaries were practically formed on a house by house basis, the service road is stuck going where it is and nothing much else aside from Bazis will be permitted in the SW.

I disagree,... the lack of any residential tower in the SW isn't because of "flaws and arbitrariness in the secondary plan." North of Sheppard along Yonge, its more commercial plaza retail lots which are easier to acquire for redevelopment. South of Sheppard along Yonge it's more single residential houses which are harder to acquire all the desired lots for redevelopment. That said, it's really a question of why the east side of Yonge south of Sheppard to 401 is much more developed with offices and condos than the west side of Yonge. On the west side of Yonge between Avondale and 401 is old Maclean Hunter huge lot which was snapped up by many condo developers in mid 90's when that lot became available,.. today there's about 10 condo towers with townhouses on that site. The East side of Yonge street in downtown North York is much more desirable because it's in a much better school zone,... ie Earl Haig Secondary School.

What's on the West side of Yonge between Sheppard and 401? With Yonge Street frontage,... Take a look,... at the south-west corner of Yonge & Poyntz Avenue is Shell gas station,... on Yonge between Johnston Avenue and Florence Avenue is Esso gas station,... south-west corner of Yonge and Cameron Avenue is Petro Canada gas station. Think about,... southbound Yonge Street, world's longest street and Toronto's main street,... just before it meets 401, North America's busiest highway,.... can you say Gas Station Ka-Ching money machine. And there is no way in hell any of these three big gas companies would give up their gas station at these sites. :eek:

The old City of North York had plans to extend the western Service Ring Road (Beecroft Road) south of current Poyntz Avenue ending to Franklin Avenue (right at the mouth of 401 westbound on ramps). After amalgamation, those plans died,.... city of Toronto have no plans to extend the Beecroft Road (service ring road) any further south. One city planner I spoke to says the city doesn't want to disrupt established neighbourhoods,.... gee, I guess when they extend this service ring road northward to Finch towards Drewry Ave & Cummer Ave,... I guess those neighbourhoods are not considered established enough,... tsk, tsk. What about when they extend the eastern service ring road south of Sheppard to Avondale Avenue? Isn't the existing residential neighbourhood on the east side of Yonge as established as the west side?

It really doesn't take a genius to figure out why the western service ring road ends at Poyntz and won't go further south to Franklin Avenue at the mouth of the 401 on ramps,.... the city of Toronto doesn't want to divert southbound Yonge Street traffic off Yonge between Poyntz Avenue and Franklin Avenue,... and piss off the big gas station companies. :eek:


There's one house nestled right up against the 401 - it has several acres of land and would be a great site for a few condos...the views over the 401/valley/golf course would be wonderful.

Yeah,... great if you're deaf! :) Nestled right up against North America's busiest highway,... the good thing is, its so congested during most of the day, cars don't make much sound when they zoom by at 40km per hour. :)

Just a stone throw west of that house you're talking about is an former convent or something like that for old catholic nuns to retire at,... that was sold to developer about 7 years ago,... developer wanted to originally build low rise condos there,... then after they acquired the land, changed their minds and wanted to build huge condos there,.... neighbourhood NIMBYs rejected it, city rejected it, OMB rejected it,... so city of Toronto brought the land from developer and will be building much needed catholic elementary school at that site.


Hell, even a "401 station" on the Yonge subway wouldn't be an outrageous idea if anything else was redeveloped...

North-east of Yonge & 401 is a almost a dozen condos plus townhouses on old Maclean-Hunter site,... and more new condos coming.

TTC will never build 401 subway station for a number of reason,... one Sheppard-Yonge station runs from Sheppard to Poyntz Avenue,.... and 401 is only 400-500m away from Poyntz Ave. so its way too close. TTC like at least 1.6km apart,.... too many stations will delay overall travel time. Another major reason, existing subway tracks under 401 slopes down Yonge Street to Hogg's Hollow (York Mills Rd - Wilson Avenue),... hard enough stopping a subway train on level track,... good luck stopping on slopping track. Another major reason, it's extremely complicated to add new subway station to an existing subway line,.... basically impossible,... tunnel boring was used to create that stretch of subway tunnel, you can't just add a new station there.

NOTE: Yonge subway line between Sheppard-Yonge and Finch was completed in 1974,... but when they built the subway tunnels between Sheppard and Finch they created a box structure for a subway station at North York City Centre,... so that a future subway station can be added later,... North York City Centre station was added in 1987 and today it's the busiest subway station without a feeder bus or streetcar service, 26,070 daily boardings a day,... and that's all walk in passenger traffic! Just from surrounding neighbourhood, condos and office buildings. How's that for ubanization! For comparison sake Dufferin Station has 28,270 daily boardings a day and it's serviced by the 29 Dufferin bus,... the busiest TTC bus route in the system.
 
Sunnyray, towers don't just sprout because the City coaxes them out of the ground: a developer has to want to build a tower in those places. Office towers in all of Toronto in the recent past have been few and far between. After BCE II we had a drought, Maritime Life, a drought, Canada Life, and now suddenly 4 new towers in the core. Meanwhile during the same time offices were popping up in office parks all over the 905. It seems the developers wanted the suburban office park, parking lots (like SNC Lavalin wanted at Islington), and lower taxes.

Meanwhile the City would dearly love to have workplaces close to housing, as it's cheaper to service, so the City has the zoning in place in nodes scattered about town for the desired office towers to go up. The various mini City Centres around town are meant to balance subway ridership. Why have everyone riding only downtown in the morning when just as many trains have to run the other way too? Still, a developer has to want to build in one of those nodes...

So, now we have a developer wanting to build an office tower outside the core: Canadian Tire is planning an office tower at Leslie subway station. Has the City discouraged it? There's certainly no evidence of that, and we expect this tower to go ahead soon.

Believe me, if an office developer coughed in the direction of one of the nodes, the politicians would be wining and dining them for months. But no giant parking lots.

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There's been other (smallish) office complexes built recently in suburban 416, like the ~300K sq.ft tower at Steeles & Woodbine (which, although branded as a technology campus, is part of a larger planned complex).

I disagree,... the lack of any residential tower in the SW isn't because of "flaws and arbitrariness in the secondary plan." North of Sheppard along Yonge, its more commercial plaza retail lots which are easier to acquire for redevelopment. South of Sheppard along Yonge it's more single residential houses which are harder to acquire all the desired lots for redevelopment.

I guess when they extend this service ring road northward to Finch towards Drewry Ave & Cummer Ave,... I guess those neighbourhoods are not considered established enough,... tsk, tsk.

Yeah,... great if you're deaf! :) Nestled right up against North America's busiest highway,... the good thing is, its so congested during most of the day, cars don't make much sound when they zoom by at 40km per hour. :)

TTC will never build 401 subway station for a number of reason

No, it's not at all harder. It was done everywhere else in the NYC zone.

There's only plans to extend Beecroft north to Drewry, not Doris north to Cummer. Maybe it'll change if the city ever gets around to a secondary plan-type study of Yonge as far as Steeles (before the subway extension is finished just might be a good idea).

Tridel's Skymark on the other side of Yonge is closer to the 401.

I know a 401 station won't happen - the ellipsis after that line served a purpose...

You don't need to type up a thousand words of development history with every post, though: I'm as familiar with North York Centre as anyone else here.
 
Marcus_A_J,... well, apparently times have changed. I actually asked a city planner why condo buildings are allowed to start selling before they have all city approvals,... I even suggested the city should start taxing developers for units sold before they have approvals. I mean,... well, city of Toronto tax us on everything else,....

I somehow get the feeling that the tax on developers would get passed on to the poor buyer as well, a long with all the other city taxes. At the end, it's the buyers who take the full brunt of the taxes.
 
Commercial office buildings are being built downtown, as opposed to NYC, because there is a demand and a desire to build them there, not because the city has a different tax structure for the downtown towers. In fact, the NYC towers would probably pay less in tax as the assessment would be cheaper.
 
sunnyray:

Originally Posted by AlvinofDiaspar
sunnyray:

I know the history of planning behind the NYCC. The question I have for you is - are you having an issue with this project because of the change in land use, or is it about using the change in land use as an excuse to oppose this project, with the real reasons behind the opposition based on other factors such as built form?

AoD

Its not just the change in land use for that north-east corner of the lot, it's also the height limit and density limit. Bazis Emerald Park at 142m will exceed the 100m for the area and dwarf all other buildings in the area. Bazis Emerald Park wants a 6.0 density which exceeds the existing 4.5 for the area.

Thank you for the succinct answer.

AoD
 
Ummer,.... yes and no. Yes, Tridel Hullmark doesn't have all the city approvals,.... and no,... Tridel Hullmark Centre is not in the same shoes as Bazis Emerald Park. According one city planner I spoke to, Tridel Hullmark Centre was rejected by the city,... it's now in OMB stage,... it's been 10 years and counting already.

Hullmark Centre has not been rejected by the City and remains in the approval stage ... and in fact the Tridel application has not been in for 10+ years, the application was submitted August 3, 2006, the preliminary report was dated August 23, 2006, followed by an Information Report dated December 14, 2006 ... but no refusal report, so I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of OMB process
 
I think he meant Tridel has a 10 year history of building in Toronto? Not 10 years applying for Hullmark LOL But I don't know Tridel's history. I thought they've been around longer than 10 years.

http://www.tridel.com/tridel/history.php

wow tridel has been around for a really long time :O
 
Over the last 20 years, 'The Hullmark Center' has gone through countless changes to come to where it's at (there are renderings earlier in the thread). I do believe this is Tridel's first stab at the project though.
 
Hullmark Centre has not been rejected by the City and remains in the approval stage ... and in fact the Tridel application has not been in for 10+ years, the application was submitted August 3, 2006, the preliminary report was dated August 23, 2006, followed by an Information Report dated December 14, 2006 ... but no refusal report, so I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of OMB process


Yes, I'm quite familiar with the latest Tridel Hullmark Centre,... submitted August 3, 2006,... "Preliminary Report" dated August 29, 2006 (my copy is dated 29th,... so maybe yours dated August 23rd more preliminary than the one I have). OPA & Rezoning Application 06 163756 NNY 23 OZ Applicant: Stephen F. Waque, Borden Ladner Gervais Llp

Anyways,... at the Bazis Emerald Park community information meeting about a week and a half ago, I talked to two of the city planners and asked one about the Tridel Hullmark Centre and was told there's no approval, its in OMB and it's been on the table for 10 years already,... My assumption is, if it's in OMB, that means the city of Toronto already refused it. :eek: Surprise, surprise,... Tridel Hullmark Centre has 164m height when the city limit for the area is 100m and its Area A (0% residential),... city wants office and commercial usage at that site and Tridel Hullmark want to include two residential condo towers at that site. Do you expect the city to approve Tridel Hullmark Centre?

Tridel Hullmark Centre probably figured out there's no way in hell they'll get a approval from city of Toronto so just go to OMB,.... without waiting for a formal City of Toronto rejection.

FYI, the city planners also told me,... there will be another community information meeting for the Tridel Hullmark Centre in a couple of months or so. Thus, we should get an update on exactly where the Tridel Hullmark Centre project is at that meeting,....
 
Yes, the city planners also told me,... there will be another community information meeting for the Tridel Hullmark Centre in a couple of months or so. Thus, we should get an update on exactly where the Tridel Hullmark Centre project is at that meeting,....

Most likley will be to break the news to you and the community that the OMB has finally aproved this project. :)
 
Most likley will be to break the news to you and the community that the OMB has finally aproved this project. :)

Edited for content - ST

If OMB approved Tridel Hullmark Centre as is, why would there even by a community information meeting? OMB gets final say regardless of city of Toronto and local community concerns. Tridel Hullmark Centre would just proceed with their construction plans.

Community information meeting is part of the application process and is required from the city of Toronto whenever a project goes against the city rules for the area (ie zoning changes). But if a project complies with all city of Toronto rules,... no community meeting is required.

Why even have another Tridel Hullmark Centre community information meeting? Obviously, it's not to discuss the exact same thing that was discussed previously,... like proposing 164m tower in area with 100m limit and proposing residential condo towers in area designated for 0% residential (Area A). Tridel Hullmark Centre must have significant changes to their project to discuss with the community. Since Tridel Hullmark Centre is hoping to break ground this fall, they're probably be discussing a much shorter Tridel Hullmark Centre along with concessions and amenities for the community (hey, that's the way the game is played).

The fact that there will be another Tridel Hullmark Centre community information meeting means that they're still in violation of city rules for the site. My guess, it's the Area A (0% residential) that's still being violated and they've knocked down the both towers to less than 100m.

Seriously, did anyone really expect the Tridel Hullmark Centre to be built at 164m when the area height limit is 100m? Even the other condo residents are complaining! BTW, with the north-east wye directly under the both towers of Tridel Hullmark Centre and originally engineered with 100m buildings in mind, it would have been prohibitively expensive to re-engineer it for 164m towers.
 
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