[TonyV]

This is where that "theme park" (Cloud Podium) you slagged off earlier would have come in. It would have been the tipping point that would have turned this block into quite the event destination. But the Tim Hortons crowd have prevailed. And that facadism will more than make up for the visual/cultural heavyweight the Cloud Podium would have been....right?

fcg -- I wouldn't want you to think that I "slagged off" the cloud podium. Far from it. Doesn't mean that I liked everything about how it presented; I felt that some tinkering was needed. And I don't think it's dead, either.

wrt your anger about how this thing developed, I think that anger is justified. I miss those "petals". I don't see why the good of this should get thrown out and I am hoping to see it put back. But -- could never stomach how those three skyscrapers were quite literally butting into other things (making Theatre Park look squished, for example). I'm so happy to see the space between the two remaining 'scrapers … and if they wanna go 120 storeys I don't care, as long as good taste prevails over clumsiness. These changes go halfway in that direction.

Seriously, I don't think the thing is dead. Them-thar planners need to realize that we in Toronto deserve a bit of Gaudi.

 

[ksun]

You're looking at the final design...there isn't going to be a Cloud Podium...Whitewear and POW stay as is (although I imagine Whitewear will get a reno along with the new top floor mini-gallery).

The important questions are:
...will Tim Hortons rent go up?
...will Tim Hortons introduce a Frank Gehry donut to celebrate?

(I guess I'm not going to "give it up already" eh)

Please don't give it up.
Many are enjoying your snarky comments instead of the the usual platitude (terms like heritage, urban fabric, neighourhood context, etc).

 

[buildup]

Please don't give it up.
Many are enjoying your snarky comments instead of the the usual platitude (terms like heritage, urban fabric, neighourhood context, etc).

I agree with you fcg. Im optimistic like TonyV about some aspects like 2 towers vs one and the height. But the loss of the podium was a pointless compromise. My sense is some people are uncomfortable with the process that lead to this result as well as their role in it and therefore want to begin the forgetting. That is not how history works, people need to be helfd accountable and we need to learn.

 

[argus]

Please don't give it up.
Many are enjoying your snarky comments instead of the the usual platitude (terms like heritage, urban fabric, neighourhood context, etc).

This is a building proposal. The neighbourhood, the urban fabric, the context and the heritage are real and exist. That you confuse them as being mere "platitude" or as mere fodder for snark suggests that your sole focus on this proposal comes with an abject neglect of everything else.

 

[buildup]

This is a building proposal. The neighbourhood, the urban fabric, the context and the heritage are real and exist. That you confuse them as being mere "platitude" or as mere fodder for snark suggests that your sole focus on this proposal comes with an abject neglect of everything else.

No-one claimed they don't exist. Claiming they do is a tautology. My bowl of cereal exists.
I feel the Cloud proposal is superior to what exists.

 

[freshcutgrass]

This is a building proposal. The neighbourhood, the urban fabric, the context and the heritage are real and exist. That you confuse them as being mere "platitude" or as mere fodder for snark suggests that your sole focus on this proposal comes with an abject neglect of everything else.

You are overlooking the very real possibility that ksun was just being facetious.

 

[freshcutgrass]

fcg -- I wouldn't want you to think that I "slagged off" the cloud podium. Far from it. Doesn't mean that I liked everything about how it presented; I felt that some tinkering was needed. And I don't think it's dead, either. Seriously, I don't think the thing is dead.

We hadn't seen the final Cloud Podium design. Of course there was going to be "tinkering". But it would have been Frank Gehry tinkering....that's the good kind.

And yea...it's dead, as is the entire original overall site design. It's not suddenly going to go back to the original concept that included the Cloud Podium, because the Cloud Podium was a part of a design concept that has been trashed.

People keep forgetting this is a project by David Mirvish and Frank Gehry. All the motives and concepts are coming from a very different place than your everyday average developer project.

 

[ushahid]

I didn't like this project at first but now the more I look at the renders the more I like this project. it is not that bad if they add some clouds over the podium or make the podium abit creative.

 

[khris]

You're looking at the final design...there isn't going to be a Cloud Podium...Whitewear and POW stay as is (although I imagine Whitewear will get a reno along with the new top floor mini-gallery).

The important questions are:
...will Tim Hortons rent go up?
...will Tim Hortons introduce a Frank Gehry donut to celebrate?

(I guess I'm not going to "give it up already" eh)

The final design? No, I don't think so.

 

[freshcutgrass]

The final design? No, I don't think so.

I meant it's final in terms of the Cloud Podium not being reintroduced as suggested.

And not just because of artistic or financial reasons (which are substantial), but pure logistics. The development site has been shrunk to include only the property east of POW and west of the King Eddy. Just two plots of land across the street from each other...no room foe a "podium"...just a "base" of a tower, which is going to include a facadism of the Anderson Building, so the bases of the two towers are not even going to match, let alone form a cohesive "podium". And without the 60,000 sqft gallery that would have been the star and anchor of the Cloud Podium...what's the point?

 

[NBGtect]

The development site has been shrunk to include only the property east of POW and west of the King Eddy.

West of the King Eddy?!?!? My Lord! That IS one huge site! I'm back to being interested in this thread again. There are a lot of buildings that should be saved along this stretch though; others will, of course, disagree and want them all torn down.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

I meant it's final in terms of the Cloud Podium not being reintroduced as suggested.

And not just because of artistic or financial reasons (which are substantial), but pure logistics. The development site has been shrunk to include only the property east of POW and west of the King Eddy. Just two plots of land across the street from each other...no room foe a "podium"...just a "base" of a tower, which is going to include a facadism of the Anderson Building, so the bases of the two towers are not even going to match, let alone form a cohesive "podium". And without the 60,000 sqft gallery that would have been the star and anchor of the Cloud Podium...what's the point?

You guys really don't get it - the point is for David Mirvish to make a lot of money selling condos and stroke his own ego in the process. The rest is all whitewashing...

 

[buildup]

You guys really don't get it - the point is for David Mirvish to make a lot of money selling condos and stroke his own ego in the process. The rest is all whitewashing...

Ape,
Thanks for your input. It's important for people to understand the thought processes out there and you represent one element.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Ape,
Thanks for your input. It's important for people to understand the thought processes out there and you represent one element.

It seems pretty obvious if you look at the facts. He has sold Honest Ed's & Mirvish village to a developer, and doesn't seem to care what they do after he gets paid. The initial M+G proposal would have seen the Princess of Wales theatre demolished solely to allow for more condos. The OCAD space and "Mirvish Gallery" are tiny relative to the rest of the project - a mere 25,000 square feet for OCAD and 9,000 square feet for the gallery against 200,000 square feet of retail & office plus the condos above.

In comparison, the Ryerson Student Learning Centre is over 155,000 square feet. I'm sure OCAD is happy to have the space, but if they needed it that much they could have funded it through the own capital plan. As it is, Mirvish gets to point to his amazing philanthropic contribution even though it's just a small slice of a greater project where most of the benefits accrue to him personally.

 

[buildup]

It seems pretty obvious if you look at the facts. He has sold Honest Ed's & Mirvish village to a developer, and doesn't seem to care what they do after he gets paid. The initial M+G proposal would have seen the Princess of Wales theatre demolished solely to allow for more condos. The OCAD space and "Mirvish Gallery" are tiny relative to the rest of the project - a mere 25,000 square feet for OCAD and 9,000 square feet for the gallery against 200,000 square feet of retail & office plus the condos above.

In comparison, the Ryerson Student Learning Centre is over 155,000 square feet. I'm sure OCAD is happy to have the space, but if they needed it that much they could have funded it through the own capital plan. As it is, Mirvish gets to point to his amazing philanthropic contribution even though it's just a small slice of a greater project where most of the benefits accrue to him personally.

This is a slightly different argument than you initially put forth. I never said he's a financial martyr, he is under no obligation to maintain a business relic like Mirvish Village after it's appeal to Torontonians as a place to shop has passed. He sold it, so what? If the city wants to preserve the structure it can, certainly Mirvish can't enforce it.

These are crazy apples to oranges comparisons - you're comparing the square feet of an Ontario College/University building to what a condo developer can offer - why? There's nothing attractive about the theatre. He built it in the first place, and could build a better one closeby.

Im tired of the red herring that because he wants to make money we should oppose the project. I don't care whether he makes money, aside from the fact I like see commercial projects in Toronto succeed...rather I am arguing the Cloud podium was vastly superior from an architectural perspective. It might have been the sort of thing people would point in 50 years as a bold example of how modern architects can solve street level challenges as well as developers of yore.