[DC83]

Any plans by the 22nd century to extend Hamilton's LRT to the Royal Botanical Gardens?

There are plans for an Express Bus to Waterdown, which will serve the RBG.

It’s part of the HSR’s Re-Envision plans, found here:

https://www.hamilton.ca/sites/default/files/2023-04/hsr-redesigned-network-concept-system-map.pdf

The Express Bus in question is Route 60.
It connects the East End (Centre Mall) to Waterdown via Mohawk Rd & Downtown Hamilton’s two GO Stations.

I think the long(lonnng)-term plan is to convert that route to LRT, so maybe by 2084?

The B-Line LRT will eventually extend east to Fruitland & QEW, and west to University Plaza (possibly Downtown Dundas).

 

[Chris R.]

I know some people involved and it's moving slowly through the process. It's just not a priority for Metrolinx and the staff involved with building LRTs at the moment. Eglinton LRT and Finch West LRT being delayed means the not unlimited resources are tied up with that. I suspect once we have a clearer date of the Eglinton Crosstown completion we will start to get more info about Hamilton's LRT. There is also a limited number of contractors that can effectively work through a project of this scope and they are currently largely working on the prior two mentioned projects along with the Hurontario LRT project.

I suspect we will start to see some more movement in the fall, which is unfortunately much later than many of us were hoping for. I was hoping that major works would start next year, but it's looking more and more that major works will start in 2025. Hamilton's council can't really do much about this unless they want to put forward additional capital.

 

[Sunnyside]

I know some people involved and it's moving slowly through the process. It's just not a priority for Metrolinx and the staff involved with building LRTs at the moment. Eglinton LRT and Finch West LRT being delayed means the not unlimited resources are tied up with that. I suspect once we have a clearer date of the Eglinton Crosstown completion we will start to get more info about Hamilton's LRT. There is also a limited number of contractors that can effectively work through a project of this scope and they are currently largely working on the prior two mentioned projects along with the Hurontario LRT project.

I suspect we will start to see some more movement in the fall, which is unfortunately much later than many of us were hoping for. I was hoping that major works would start next year, but it's looking more and more that major works will start in 2025. Hamilton's council can't really do much about this unless they want to put forward additional capital.

This is also a partial response to @DC83. I’ve been combing quite a few Metrolinx documents lately and my impression is now that Metrolinx MAYBE hasn’t really been lying about the Hamilton LRT per se; they do actually want to start it as part of the next phase (really feels like phase 1.5 given the phasing is more well-defined by subways) alongside the Dundas, Queen and Durham BRTs. I don’t think this was always supposed to the case, hence the frustration, but these projects are also in limbo, they just haven’t had as much controversy around them.

Obviously the reason for the hold up is in part due to Finch/Eglinton, but the political malaise of building it hasn’t given any urgency; this government is okay with relegating it alongside the BRTs rather than prioritize it. If I’m wrong about my optimism, so be it. It is poor conduct in any case on Metrolinx’s part, who has let the political mask slip a bit too much for my taste.

 

[KevinT]

You'd think at the very least that all of the utility relocations could be going on right now so that the corridor is ready when the track plans are done. From my recollection of the ION LRT build in Waterloo, this was over half the work...

 

[Sunnyside]

You'd think at the very least that all of the utility relocations could be going on right now so that the corridor is ready when the track plans are done. From my recollection of the ION LRT build in Waterloo, this was over half the work...

The issue here is most of the work is related to utilities. Much of the Hamilton LRT’s work is a project to upgrade the infrastructure (utilities) underneath King st/Queenston, not to simply provide a piece of transit infrastructure. We’re talking tearing out over century-old systems and updating them from what I know. I don’t think anything is really being ‘relocated’ because of this, but I’m not as knowledgeable on the topic.

 

[Chris R.]

The issue here is most of the work is related to utilities. Much of the Hamilton LRT’s work is a project to upgrade the infrastructure (utilities) underneath King st/Queenston, not to simply provide a piece of transit infrastructure. We’re talking tearing out over century-old systems and updating them from what I know. I don’t think anything is really being ‘relocated’ because of this, but I’m not as knowledgeable on the topic.

This is what many continue to not understand about Hamilton's LRT project. Not only will LRT transform the lower city, and change the culture of getting around in Hamilton, but it is also a massive infrastructure bailout for the city.

In the original $1b figure only 40% of the budget was building the actual LRT, and 60% was infrastructure replacement. If that percentage remains constant, that means the cost infrastructure replacement along the corridor is going to be $2.22 billion, while building the actual rail will be $1.48 billion.

Hamilton has about a $3b-$4b infrastructure deficit, and this money will go a long way to reducing that backlog be it's 14km of infrastructure in the most used thoroughfare that the City is getting replaced without their budget being impacted.

 

[Sunnyside]

This is what many continue to not understand about Hamilton's LRT project. Not only will LRT transform the lower city, and change the culture of getting around in Hamilton, but it is also a massive infrastructure bailout for the city.

In the original $1b figure only 40% of the budget was building the actual LRT, and 60% was infrastructure replacement. If that percentage remains constant, that means the cost infrastructure replacement along the corridor is going to be $2.22 billion, while building the actual rail will be $1.48 billion.

Hamilton has about a $3b-$4b infrastructure deficit, and this money will go a long way to reducing that backlog be it's 14km of infrastructure in the most used thoroughfare that the City is getting replaced without their budget being impacted.

Thank you for the exact numbers, I knew it was something like this but didn’t want to go too deep as I wasn’t certain. It’s so important to this project that this post should really be pinned.

With that, Its no wonder why the LRT is not urgent; much of it isn’t relevant to Metrolinx or the province, and it has a $2B prerequisite to deliver what they actually want. My warm take is that this questions the actual significance of the transit investment alone. Framed as “only” $1.5B for the LRT, can Metrolinx justify that $3-4B was spent on Hamilton transit if it isn’t all to that end? Maybe, but perhaps the amounts are lumped because [politics…] doing otherwise would shed light on how much work actually needs to be done. It would seem to me that if $3-4B was once deemed appropriate for Hamilton RT (which I think it is), then the utilities work is a seperate prerequisite- not transit money itself. $2B should(‘ve) materialized for actual transit projects.

In any case, I’d like the takeaway from this rambling to be that we seem disincentivized to actually invest in transit alone because the externalities are quite dramatic. As this is not Toronto, I understand the unwillingness to spend extra dollars to overcome, say, the escarpment (repeatedly defaulting to BRT for the A-Line) for instance. But, it is unfortunate nobody sees the value in trying to overcome those obstacles as enabling a baseline level of service. Simply comparing gross spending is resulting in comparatively less or worse transit while demand rapidly mounts and exceeds that of elsewhere.

 

[ARG1]

Thank you for the exact numbers, I knew it was something like this but didn’t want to go too deep as I wasn’t certain. It’s so important to this project that this post should really be pinned.

With that, Its no wonder why the LRT is not urgent; much of it isn’t relevant to Metrolinx or the province, and it has a $2B prerequisite to deliver what they actually want. My warm take is that this questions the actual significance of the transit investment alone. Framed as “only” $1.5B for the LRT, can Metrolinx justify that $3-4B was spent on Hamilton transit if it isn’t all to that end? Maybe, but perhaps the amounts are lumped because [politics…] doing otherwise would shed light on how much work actually needs to be done. It would seem to me that if $3-4B was once deemed appropriate for Hamilton RT (which I think it is), then the utilities work is a seperate prerequisite- not transit money itself. $2B should(‘ve) materialized for actual transit projects.

In any case, I’d like the takeaway from this rambling to be that we seem disincentivized to actually invest in transit alone because the externalities are quite dramatic. As this is not Toronto, I understand the unwillingness to spend extra dollars to overcome, say, the escarpment (repeatedly defaulting to BRT for the A-Line) for instance. But, it is unfortunate nobody sees the value in trying to overcome those obstacles as enabling a baseline level of service. Simply comparing gross spending is resulting in comparatively less or worse transit while demand rapidly mounts and exceeds that of elsewhere.

Furthermore, its worth noting the cost comparison Metrolinx did, where they claimed the whole alignment can be done by BRT for $1B, meanwhile LRT would only account for the 3 westernmost stations. This tells to me that either the utilities work isn't included in the cost anymore, or the cost of the utilities hasn't increased at anywhere near the same rate as the actual LRT.

 

[Undead]

I think this calls on us to get serious about our construction costs and particularly transit construction costs. Transit can be less of a political hot potato if it isn't so pricey. Governments won't need to contort themselves into pretzels to avoid being seen investing too much/not enough in politically expedient ridings.

 

[Sunnyside]

Furthermore, its worth noting the cost comparison Metrolinx did, where they claimed the whole alignment can be done by BRT for $1B, meanwhile LRT would only account for the 3 westernmost stations. This tells to me that either the utilities work isn't included in the cost anymore, or the cost of the utilities hasn't increased at anywhere near the same rate as the actual LRT.

I think for the purposes of cancelling the project they included the utilities in that estimate. Today Its unclear if costs account for cost inflation; either they do, or the cost went up and the amount is hard to pallete, so they wont say how much until it is politically convenient to do so (ie, around the actual time of construction). But, I fail to see a reason to lie, as the province doesn’t have room to play games anymore- it will likely be forced to pay whatever the price ends up being.

I do think a partial explanation for the lack of action from 2019-2023 would be that the allocated resources for it and some other small projects got diverted to the Ontario Line, so it’s more dependent on the two/three under-construction LRTs than it was previously.

A question for those who know more about the construction industry; given that the price of (now-stretched) labour seems to be a primary driver of cost increases, how much of our construction costs boil down to simply having x number of people on a site? That is to say, are the costs becoming less attached to what is being built, and more about getting enough skilled people to do it?

 

[Sunnyside]

I think this calls on us to get serious about our construction costs and particularly transit construction costs. Transit can be less of a political hot potato if it isn't so pricey. Governments won't need to contort themselves into pretzels to avoid being seen investing too much/not enough in politically expedient ridings.

An unsavoury but effective solution would be to
A) flood the construction industry with labour, and/or
B) make what we are building less complex.

Looking at subways and LRTs with that one- elevated is straightforward, so is cut and cover, and in Europe there is precedent to barely have concourse levels. Shaving off some of the red tape ‘consultation’ stuff can help, but honestly I don’t think that can affect money spent after shovels are in the ground.

 

[ARG1]

A) flood the construction industry with labour, and/or

I think this is the big issue here, and it comes from a decade of horrible education policy. The liberal government (as well as society in general) pushed people so hard to get a post secondary education, and to basically have an economy of programmers/IT that we have a massive shortage of new blood coming into construction (most construction workers are aging). This isn't a trend that will be easily reversed.

 

[Undead]

I dunno, seems easy enough to reverse. Just reduce all immigration categories and ramp up construction workers. And when they're here, keep them on closed work permits forcing them to stay in the industry. Anything is better than further flooding the country with bachelor degree people of which we already have way too many.

 

[KevinT]

This is what many continue to not understand about Hamilton's LRT project. Not only will LRT transform the lower city, and change the culture of getting around in Hamilton, but it is also a massive infrastructure bailout for the city.

Same for Waterloo Region. I believe it was one of the regional councillors that described it as an infrastructure upgrade with a railroad on top.

 

[adys123]

In fact, the utility and city upgrades are what made the project so rocky in the first place. It's something that MX and the City are still actively trying to work out in terms of scoping and cost sharing. But, ultimately that work must get done at this time, since it needs to be relocated anyway. It is bad practice to have to dig up the road again after the LRT is in place.