TOareaFan said:
There is a role for ML.....transit that connects cities (GO, ReR, UP) is regional in nature and needs a regional planning body........but transit systems within a city that is local and nature should be planned locally...otherwise, why have cities?
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Because it's a regional rapid transit network?! This is not a purely local transit issue. The B- and A- lines are part of a GTHA-wide network of rapid transit systems, meant to tackle a regional problem of congestion that costs the economy somewhere upwards of $6 billion annually. Local planning and input is supposed to be part of that, but Metrolinx should be pushing it through and seeing the plan come together. That is certainly their role.

Planning locally in silos, like the province is letting happen right now, leads to a fractured and non-integrated system, and just contributes to our congestion problem. Frankly, I find the province's willingness to just allow local obstructionism disintegrate the regional vision to be abominable.
 
TOareaFan said:
There is a role for ML.....transit that connects cities (GO, ReR, UP) is regional in nature and needs a regional planning body........but transit systems within a city that is local and nature should be planned locally...otherwise, why have cities?
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But what about systems that cross municipal boundaries, like the BRT lines between the York Region municipalities, or any rapid transit connection between Brampton/Mississauga or Mississauga/Toronto? Should the regional planning decisions only occur with the Province/Metrolinx if it's GO, RER, UP only? How would any municipal cross-border transit route gain final approval (Council or the Province) in your model?
 
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Allandale25 said:
But what about systems that cross municipal boundaries, like the BRT lines between the York Region municipalities, or any rapid transit connection between Brampton/Mississauga or Mississauga/Toronto? Should the regional planning decisions only occur with the Province/Metrolinx if it's GO, RER, UP only? How would any municipal cross-border transit route gain final approval (Council or the Province) in your model?
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the two municiaplities would agree. Seems that Toronto and York region found a way to get the subway to crash through that border...no? Do you think the HMLRT discussion would have been impossible if it was just mississauga and Brampton at the table and not ML? (it might have in that both councils might have been asked to vote on the proposed route before the EAs and the like were commissioned)
 
TOareaFan said:
There is a role for ML.....transit that connects cities (GO, ReR, UP) is regional in nature and needs a regional planning body........but transit systems within a city that is local and nature should be planned locally...otherwise, why have cities?
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The goal was to have ML do everything and that was stated back in 2007.

All systems where to have the same uniform and paint job, but would be operated as is, P3 or other options as they surface.

One needs to look at the big picture as there are networks within networks within networks and they only work based on the weakest link and we have too many of them.

Its time for big brother to stand up {dictatorship} to say how systems should be built, how they are built and where they should be built because its clearly shown these days the wrong dissension are being made cost billion of wasted dollars. ML is a fault also.
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
Because it's a regional rapid transit network?! This is not a purely local transit issue. The B- and A- lines are part of a GTHA-wide network of rapid transit systems, meant to tackle a regional problem of congestion that costs the economy somewhere upwards of $6 billion annually. Local planning and input is supposed to be part of that, but Metrolinx should be pushing it through and seeing the plan come together. That is certainly their role.

Planning locally in silos, like the province is letting happen right now, leads to a fractured and non-integrated system, and just contributes to our congestion problem. Frankly, I find the province's willingness to just allow local obstructionism disintegrate the regional vision to be abominable.
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It is the local part of a regional transportation plan....why should the province be telling Hamilton what route and what technology they should use on the local part of the transit plan?
 
drum118 said:
The goal was to have ML do everything and that was stated back in 2007.

All systems where to have the same uniform and paint job, but would be operated as is, P3 or other options as they surface.

One needs to look at the big picture as there are networks within networks within networks and they only work based on the weakest link.

Its time for big brother to stand up {dictatorship} to say how systems should be built, how they are built and where they should be built because its clearly shown these days the wrong dissension are being made cost billion of wasted dollars. ML is a fault also.
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Time may tell us that billions were saved?

London opting for BRT over LRT might save money in the long term....if Hamilton goes BRT over LRT perhaps the same outcome. One thing that I am confident in saying is that building higher order transit than is required by the local needs/environment is wasting money...perhaps the billions you speak of.
 
ShonTron said:
There you go again....

There was an EA and plenty of public consultations. Brampton Council voted to throw all that out for the section north of Steeles. Stop saying that the province dictated the LRT in Brampton.
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Maybe the mistake was doing EA work on a route that the local council had not voted on....perhaps that simple mistake has caused all this angst.

but the point is that no other municipality that voted against/changed the provincially supported plan has had their transit dollars "yanked"....no need to revisit the whole decision making process but there must be some reason that other municipalities get to keep the money on the table for their locally preferred solution but that one didn't
 
TOareaFan said:
Time may tell us that billions were saved?

London opting for BRT over LRT might save money in the long term....if Hamilton goes BRT over LRT perhaps the same outcome. One thing that I am confident in saying is that building higher order transit than is required by the local needs/environment is wasting money...perhaps the billions you speak of.
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I really can't speak on London since I don't spent much time there, but think the BRT is the right choice.

One can say BRT is the right way for Hamilton while the other say LRT. I look at the various systems in the US and knowing Hamilton, LRT is the right choice for east-west. BRT is the right choice going up the mountain. Not going to Eastgate from the start is the wrong choice.

Is RT require everywhere, some places as well what it is is very debatable, as well who is really been service by it. Going from end to end is only servicing a small percentage of ridership, but it seems it has the biggest push for X line. Its the same thing saying riders need to get to X spot when in fact its not, but the only option to where someone really wants to go to in the first place since there is no option for them in the first place.
 
drum118 said:
Its time for big brother to stand up {dictatorship} to say how systems should be built, how they are built and where they should be built because its clearly shown these days the wrong dissension are being made cost billion of wasted dollars. ML is a fault also.
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Will you say the same if the province dictates to Toronto that they have to support Mississauga BRT by paying for and building true RT lanes in Toronto along Dundas (even though the TTC does not need them)?

Or it tells the TTC that the choice of the DRL along Queen is wrong and should be along King?

Or that Scarborough needs a subway?
 
TOareaFan said:
the two municiaplities would agree. Seems that Toronto and York region found a way to get the subway to crash through that border...no? Do you think the HMLRT discussion would have been impossible if it was just mississauga and Brampton at the table and not ML? (it might have in that both councils might have been asked to vote on the proposed route before the EAs and the like were commissioned)
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I guess a potential risk is that Mississauga and Brampton might have had friction on other issues (like regional governance) that carried into transit route deliberations. Also, given the corridor was strongly supported for rapid transit in both planning documents, Mississauga might have been frustrated when/if Brampton ended up changing its mind or needing more time to decide and the Province waited for the decision to do funding. Mississauga may have asked, why should we be held up for Brampton to make a decision?

It's all pretty hypothetical now because it's not how history unfolded. It's an interesting question to debate in terms of how routes are decided, funded, and what the definition of a regional line are, and how any tweaks can be made.
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
Because it's a regional rapid transit network?! This is not a purely local transit issue. L
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Arbitrarily designating something as "regional" shouldn't give the Province carte blanche to screw cities over. Municipal autonomy should be respected. Otherwise we end up this things like the Spadina Expressway imposed on unwilling communities. The Province might not be happy about it, but that's democracy for ya.

And calling this LRT regional is a bit of a stretch.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Metrolinx is designed to be a lapdog of the Liberal Party of Ontario. They'll "tell the cities off" when its politically convenient.
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Guess we'll see if a different political party is elected in 2018 if their approach changes in terms of how these decisions are made and how funding is allocated. A key question would be if that means more or less is built over time. We'll have to wait to find out.
 
Allandale25 said:
Guess we'll see if a different political party is elected in 2018 if their approach changes in terms of how these decisions are made and how funding is allocated. A key question would be if that means more or less is built over time. We'll have to wait to find out.
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When (if?) the Progressive Conservatives come into power in 2018, Metrolinx will be dissolved or fashioned into a lapdog of the PC Party of Ontario. I don't know why anyone actually expects an ounce of objectivity from this agency. Every major project they've supported (or not supported) has been for political reasons.
 
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