OneCity said:
Scarborough and Hamilton are quite a bit different. Most of Scarborough has nothing against "LRT" as a technology. The biggest challenge to overcome was the questionable integration to Toronto current network in the proposed LRT plan. LRT is actually heavily support along Eglinton & Kingston Rd.

Most Hamilton suburbs don't rely the HSR in the same way as Scarborough which sees fairly high usage on the TTC bus network. Hamilton is a tough sell outside of the beneficiary areas because the majority drive cars and that stretch where LRT is going to be built isn't seen as a priority problem area in most of their commutes

I personally think the LRT will be great for Hamilton's continuing rejuvenation of the core and transformation to into a more urban landscape and also hope it gets announced to Eastgate square as it moves ahead. For those who think Hamilton will want the LRT once Kitchener and others are complete they are wrong. The people that oppose just have no use for a public transit line that goes thorough an area that is not seen as a priority transit problem.

Scarborough is being addressed with a revised plan to move forward. Hamilton is completely different battle.
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OneCity said:
Not sure that will change the opposition whatsoever. The reality is that the areas in Hamilton opposed to LRT just dont benefit from it aside from a better downtown which is quite far away from many to begin and already easily accessible for the transportation of choice. That wont change.

I personally think it will be great for the City which is finally gaining momentum to rejuvenate its core. The Province should bundle this project with a local Red Hill or QEW improvement to make both sides happy. That might help squeeze it thru down the road.
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Glad to see you in another thread OneCity! I like what you said here too. Ancaster, Dundas, Stoney Creek just don't care at the end of the say.
dowlingm said:
GO makes Hamilton a bedroom community. High order intraurban transit makes it a destination.

The Spec published a diatribe from an engineer about how the LRT was death to traffic management. Not to say he's wrong - I'm not a P.Eng. - but it's curiously late in the day for him to mention it now, and for the Spec to publish it.
http://m.thespec.com/opinion-story/7259156-a-civil-engineer-looks-at-hamilton-s-lrt
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Well maybe that's the truth. Maybe people are just content with Hamilton being like Oshawa, Milton or Richmond Hill. So finish the Lakeshore West improvements, and call it a day.
 
JasonParis said:
Rob Ford's ghost continues to haunt large parts of urban Ontario it seems.

Things should hopefully be better in *selling* LRT once K-W, Ottawa, and Eglinton Crosstown are open.
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I think people say their cars being interfered with and just don't like it. They want go, but when the community becomes overly tied to Toronto jobs, they complain there's no jobs close to home.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Ancaster, Dundas, Stoney Creek just don't care at the end of the say.
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The reason they ought to care - and I'm amazed it hasn't had more profile - is: property taxes. Even if people on the outskirts don't care to go there, a renewed downtown would bring in money for the city that would lower their own property taxes.

If that data is out there, I missed it. Or, if the data isn't compelling, then maybe LRT is truly only "nice to have".

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
The reason they ought to care - and I'm amazed it hasn't had more profile - is: property taxes. Even if people on the outskirts don't care to go there, a renewed downtown would bring in money for the city that would lower their own property taxes.

If that data is out there, I missed it. Or, if the data isn't compelling, then maybe LRT is truly only "nice to have".

- Paul
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There will be differing reasons in each municipality for supporting or opposing any form of transit build.....that said, I have not followed Hamilton as closely as I followed the Peel LRT on Hurontario.....but the one commonality I saw was people who would see no direct benefit from the line (in both cases, the majority of the populace) worried about increases in taxation driven by the operating costs of the new LRT.

Supporters say there will be no increase as LRT is cheaper to operate (leaving out that that is only true once a certain level of ridership is achieved) and opponents say that it is very true if the ridership goals are not met.

It strikes me that if there is no increase in op costs that this "fear" could be dealt with by negotiating, and making public, the operating agreement(s) at the same time as you ask people to support the line. The way they do it now (at least in the cases in Peel and Hamilton) leaves room for skepticism over the line "how could we turn down free money from the province"
 
TOareaFan said:
There will be differing reasons in each municipality for supporting or opposing any form of transit build.....that said, I have not followed Hamilton as closely as I followed the Peel LRT on Hurontario.....but the one commonality I saw was people who would see no direct benefit from the line (in both cases, the majority of the populace) worried about increases in taxation driven by the operating costs of the new LRT.
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I'm surprised that people think this way, but I guess they do.

One would think that a healthier downtown Hamilton would be a greater tax revenue base, thereby keeping suburban property taxes lower. That must be better than break-even on the cost of the LRT.... if not, the opponents have a point.

A healthier downtown also means higher suburban property values. Yes, that may drive higher property tax assessments, but the gain in equity for existing homeowners far outweighs that.

Even if they get no direct enjoyment from the downtown, the boost to the city works to their advantage.

Marcus Gee's latest piece on Detroit's LRT is remarkably similar in outlook. It's no slamdunk in Detroit, either.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I'm surprised that people think this way, but I guess they do.

One would think that a healthier downtown Hamilton would be a greater tax revenue base, thereby keeping suburban property taxes lower. That must be better than break-even on the cost of the LRT.... if not, the opponents have a point.
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Really depends on what kind of development (if any) the LRT brings to DT...doesn't it? Toronto residents benefit greatly from their downtown (and other nodes) attracting huge amounts of office and other commercial development.....so their mill rate is kept very low and they are subsidized by the highly taxed (and low demand on services) commercial segment. I honestly don't see how a healthier DT Hamilton turns into that....it might see some condo/rental residential construction along the LRT....but that is not going to keep anyone's taxes low.

crs1026 said:
A healthier downtown also means higher suburban property values. Yes, that may drive higher property tax assessments, but the gain in equity for existing homeowners far outweighs that.
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Only comment on this is that it shows a remarkable lack of understanding of how the the MVA tax system works. Having your home assessed at a higher value does not necessarily mean your taxes are going up.

crs1026 said:
Even if they get no direct enjoyment from the downtown, the boost to the city works to their advantage.

- Paul
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Just saying that does not make it so.....and in many municipalities people have done a very poor job with that sales pitch......you could argue that Toronto has one of the most successful downtowns in North America.....and every day we see political squabbles between people representing suburban constituents and downtown/core constituents. If you can't sell that idea when it is a reality ....good luck selling it as a concept.
 
TOareaFan said:
I honestly don't see how a healthier DT Hamilton turns into that....it might see some condo/rental residential construction along the LRT....but that is not going to keep anyone's taxes low.
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It may not be a gold mine, but if it isn't a net gain, then I would question LRT myself. There has to be some value in changing the balance between vacant space and low end thrift stores etc, towards more prosperous retail and cafes etc. At minimum, landlords might reinvest and improve their properties.

Only comment on this is that it shows a remarkable lack of understanding of how the the MVA tax system works. Having your home assessed at a higher value does not necessarily mean your taxes are going up.
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I'm probably quite weak on this topic.....but my house recently got reassessed thanks to the home improvement going on around me, and my taxes are definitely going up.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I'm probably quite weak on this topic.....but my house recently got reassessed thanks to the home improvement going on around me, and my taxes are definitely going up.

- Paul
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If you assume (for fun) that the municipality's need for cash....their expenditures/budget....stays the same......if all homes go up in value at the same rate....no one's taxes would go up.....the mill rate would just go down.

If (as is the norm) the municipality's need for cash goes up.....even if all homes keep the same value everyone's taxes go up by an equal percentage....the mill rate goes up.

The most common experience, however, is that the municipality needs more cash.....and homes go up in value at differing rates (a neighbourhood get's hot or, in your case, you improve your property and it's value likely increases by that plus the general market increase)...then everyone's taxes go up but not all by the same rate.....your taxes get hit with the general mill rate increase and likely an "over market" increase in value due to your improvements.

But the general assumption people have that increased value of the home is what makes taxes go up is just wrong.....values can go up and not automatically take your taxes with them.
 
Apparently the province is willing to fund the LRT to Eastgate.

Province willing to work with city to extend LRT to Eastgate
Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca says the province will work to extend Hamilton's LRT to Eastgate Square.

The announcement was made in a letter sent to Mayor Fred Eisenberger Wednesday.

"Given the funds made available from the removal of the LRT spur, I can confirm that the Province will work to add the Eastgate extension to the current project scope and procurement," it reads.

The extension would be contingent on support from city council and "the consideration of available funding" to address additional cost requirements, the letter continues.

"The Province will work with the City to explore ways to reduce costs to accommodate the extension within the original project budget."

The letter from Del Duca comes in response to one penned by Eisenberger earlier this week that stated Hamilton's goal is to build LRT "to Eastgate and secure the necessary funds to do so now."
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http://www.thespec.com/news-story/7...-to-work-with-city-to-extend-lrt-to-eastgate/

Right in the nick of time- I think this will be what's needed to get the LRT approved.
 
Allandale25 said:
Full copy of the letter is here. It looks like the extension, which was part of the plan before, has to fit within the "original" budget.
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yeah, I just saw that and posted an oliver moore tweet to that effect.

This is where our transit planning loses all credibility (IMO)

Last week:

cost to build $1B....if we go to Eastgate it will add $150 - $200MM

This week:

We can do it all for $1B
 
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