@Allandale25 I respect you a lot, however you've perfectly described how our incompetent democracy works. Lots of studying/investigation and minimal action. All projects are politically motivated. The costs don't really matter, they're just an excuse. We all know why Ford cancelled the project, and costs are far from the real reason.
 
I acknowledge that this is a blow to Hamilton but at the same time, Hamilton is still getting $1 billion for it's transit infrastructure which is no small sum. Hamilton was getting this line free of charge while it's peer Ontario cities of KWC, London, and Ottawa had to fork over a sizeable amount of their own money in order to qualify for QP money. Why exactly was Hamilton so special? Ottawa/KWC got their LRTs built and London will with it's BRT but they, unlike Hamilton, are willing to put their money where their mouths are and Hamilton is also getting/got 2 new GO stations and vastly superior GO service to boot.

If Hamiltonians REALLY want this line they should have to prove it like their peer Ontario cities and cough up some money of their own. Until such a time they come across as a kid who was expecting Daddy to but them a new BMW and now crying up a storm because they have to make do with a new Honda Accord...........my sympathy is limited
 
raptor said:
@Allandale25 I respect you a lot, however you've perfectly described how our incompetent democracy works. Lots of studying/investigation and minimal action. All projects are politically motivated. The costs don't really matter, they're just an excuse. We all know why Ford cancelled the project, and costs are far from the real reason.
Click to expand...

Totally respect you as well. My to expand on my thinking on the value of more data/information on the Hamilton LRT, if you're a resident or business in Hamilton who is disappointed that this was cancelled, I just feel that more information is better when fighting back against Ford or building an alliance. Yes, transit and politics is linked and I'm not naive to that. However, if the pro-LRT voices in Hamilton want to continue the conversation and even network with other transit activists in other cities, I just think they can get more traction by saying "Ford cancelled it for political reasons, inflated the numbers, here are the numbers to prove it, and if he did this to Hamilton he (or any other political party) could do this to other places" rather than just saying "Ford hates Hamilton and there's nothing we can do".
 
raptor said:
what a waste of time. So, let's say the AG finds the the Ford numbers are inflated? what can she do on top of a slap on the wrist? This is going to change nothing, but at least it keeps the folks at the AG office employed! yay for Democracy!
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As one who has seen an AG audit up close, my view is a bit different - those folks are nobody’s fool. And they aren’t swayed easily.

Note how the AG’s wording positions the future audit as being about transit project costing in general, the Hamilton LRT being included but only a part of the whole. I bet there will be some interesting and welcome findings.

That may not benefit Hamilton... I do think that it will be hard for the AG to criticise any process that errs on the side of conservative project cost projection - especially if the original projection can be shown to have been lowballed. But it may establish a more appropriate precedent and lead to consistent cost benchmarks across projects, and rattle some other skeletons in other closets. So I’m delighted to hear the AG’s response.

A knowledgeable guy with a view of KW politics offered me an interesting comment today: “If anyone tries to shut down our Phase 2, Waterloo Region will just do the project ourselves, even if the taxpayer eats the added cost. Hamilton should do the same”. I realised that I’m not knowledgeable enough to respond, so I will ask here. Where did KW come up for the funding for iOn? Did Waterloo Region have deeper pockets somehow? Politics aside, how does Hamilton’s ability to raise funding compare to KW’s? Does Hamilton have access to comparable funding if they imitated KW’s approach? Is there a difference in the underlying economics and tax base, or is the difference just a matter of different council dynamics?

I may be grasping at straws, but one wonders if this project could be “crowdfunded”, provincial non-support notwithstanding?

- Paul
 
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crs1026 said:
A knowledgeable guy with a view of KW politics offered me an interesting comment today: “If anyone tries to shut down our Phase 2, Waterloo Region will just do the project ourselves, even if the taxpayer eats the added cost.
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Phase 2 ($1.36B) is completely unfunded and isn't expected to be construction ready until 2028. Waterloo does have $187M in Investing in Canada Fund money (federal) but that expires around 2028 and will likely be used for bus fleet renewal or similar.

I believe KW funded 1/3rd of Phase 1 (~$250M) via debt. Province funded 1/3rd ($250M).

Politics aside, how does Hamilton’s ability to raise funding compare to KW’s? Does Hamilton have access to comparable funding if they imitated KW’s approach? Is there a difference in the underlying economics and tax base, or is the difference just a matter of different council dynamics?
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Hamilton has almost the exact same fundraising capacity as KW. $204M federal funds available, similar capability to take on city debt, and a $1B promise from the province. If anything, Hamilton is in a better position financially.

Ion was a pretty frugal plan; they got a lot of value for $800M.
 
It was probably just Conservatives on the Mountain who asked Doug Ford to cancel it behind the scenes. Then, they played around with the numbers in ways they wouldn't with projects they approve of to make it seem like a bad value. They're hoping that fewer people will care because it was a Hamilton project versus a GTA project, and that they'll get less bad press because the dominant media outlets in the region operate out of Toronto.

If the Conservatives really wanted to build it, they would have built a smaller part of it or worked with the federal and municipal governments. What about private sector funding from developers eying Hamilton's rising real estate prices? The Conservatives are always playing that stuff up when it's projects they want to build.

If the auditor general disputes their claims about the value proposition of the LRT, it'll be useful for future politicians to continue with the project. Otherwise, people won't be sure if the Ford government was right. Without a more objective analysis, the status quo will just strengthen Conservative anti-LRT politicians in Hamilton by giving them fodder for years to come. They'll say things like "my opponent wants to waste $5 billion on this one fancy transit line, which is too much for a city like Hamilton. Guess how much your taxes are going to rise." A contradicting auditor's general report would help pro-LRT citizens to make the project a reality at the political and planning levels.
 
jje1000 said:
Reminder that the cancellation is 100% show politics, and that Hamilton city council needs to be communicating with the Feds right now- and acting as a bridge agency to retain as much organizational continuity as possible.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1208415987202179073
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This is what should happen but i also think this is what the Conservative expected and wanted.

There are multiple political layers in this move, from a swipe at the sizable Hamilton NDP, to pressuring the Federal Liberals to pony up as I believe the Conservatives wanted the monies above $1B to come from both the other levels with nothing to gain in the Steel City.

The question is will Hamilton re-open the debate during this process knowing they are also on the hook? That may be the biggest obstacle now
 
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I keep reading that Hamilton's population will not support a LRT... TODAY, 2019 it may not. But the population is going UP!

In 2011, Hamilton had a population of 535.1 thousand. In 2016, 552.3. In 2018, 568.0. By 2021, they project a population in Hamilton of 590.7 thousand. By 2026, 626.3. By 2031, 661.1. By 2036, 696.7. By 2041, 732.6. And by 2046, they project a population in Hamilton of 769.1 thousand. A 43% increase from 2011 to 2046. See link.

We should be thinking about the future, not the past.
 
W. K. Lis said:
I keep reading that Hamilton's population will not support a LRT... TODAY, 2019 it may not. But the population is going UP!

In 2011, Hamilton had a population of 535.1 thousand. In 2016, 552.3. In 2018, 568.0. By 2021, they project a population in Hamilton of 590.7 thousand. By 2026, 626.3. By 2031, 661.1. By 2036, 696.7. By 2041, 732.6. And by 2046, they project a population in Hamilton of 769.1 thousand. A 43% increase from 2011 to 2046. See link.

We should be thinking about the future, not the past.
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For and the Regressive Conservatives cannot think about the future.
 
omny.fm

The auditor general will be looking into the Hamilton LRT project costs. - Bill Kelly Show - Omny.fm

The auditor general will be looking into the Hamilton LRT project costs. Guest: Ryan McGreal, Editor of Raise the Hammer.
omny.fm omny.fm

The local pro-LRT advocates are running this campaign:

Premier Ford, Fix Mulroney’s Mistake and Help get Hamilton LRT Back on Track


Hamilton Light Rail Initiative

The citizens initiative to bring light rail transit to Hamilton, and the definitive resource on that subject.
hamiltonlightrail.ca
 
Allandale25 said:
omny.fm

The auditor general will be looking into the Hamilton LRT project costs. - Bill Kelly Show - Omny.fm

The auditor general will be looking into the Hamilton LRT project costs. Guest: Ryan McGreal, Editor of Raise the Hammer.
omny.fm omny.fm

The local pro-LRT advocates are running this campaign:

Premier Ford, Fix Mulroney’s Mistake and Help get Hamilton LRT Back on Track


Hamilton Light Rail Initiative

The citizens initiative to bring light rail transit to Hamilton, and the definitive resource on that subject.
hamiltonlightrail.ca
Click to expand...

Make Mulroney the "scapegoat" for your mistake, Doug.
 
PinkLucy said:
Opinion piece in the local Hamilton news https://www.hamiltonnews.com/opinion-story/9783025-hamilton-s-lrt-is-dead-and-we-helped-kill-it/
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"Anyone who was undecided, expressed doubts or even asked questions was likely to be pilloried by the activists on either side"

These political activist groups are a major problem, bulling valid public concerns, suffocating reasonable discussion with polarized views. This will continue to hinder rationale progress in transit expansion

Sad to see the same ideological nonsense happening in Hamilton as has been going on in Toronto.
 
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