Well, to be fair (am I actually defending Metrolinx? Strange days!) - Metrolinx is not pushing this project down Brampton's throat. If Council does not endorse, they will stop the bulldozers at Steeles. If Brampton wants another route, ML will accommodate but Brampton has to fund it. That's a pretty respectful position.

Metrolinx was created because the individual municipalities were not working as a team and there needed to be an overall choreographer/mediator to unify the planning. I think they are showing leadership by refusing to allow a single municipal council to push the plan off a rationally thought-out framework. (yes, relatively speaking, it is rationally thought out - the only logical end point for this routing is the GO station and BT terminal in downtown Brampton. )

Brampton Council's initial position was a knee-jerk 'No' without even articulating a competing vision for their own downtown. Deferring to that quality of input would not constitute leadership. A little tough love is constructive here.

Yes, an east-west routing might be more useful for Brampton, but a lot of money has been invested already in Zum along that path and Zum has not maxxed out in capacity. So it's not the right time to switch modalities.

I'm still waiting, however, for ML to make good on the commitment for a 29-train GO train service to Brampton as repeatedly articulated as far back as 2010. No funds available for that? Go ahead, Brampton Council, make my day.

- Paul
 
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TOareaFan said:
Far be it for me to tell the province how/where/when to spend their money but what you are advocating there is that Metrolinx decides what transit is built where and local government's input is valueless......that may be how it should be in your mind but it certainly has not been how it has been done to this point in time.
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The whole mandate of Metrolinx is to create a REGIONAL transit network. They don't care about local transit. To Metrolinx the connection to the GO system should be a priority because that is what will get cars off the highways.
 
crs1026 said:
Well, to be fair (am I actually defending Metrolinx? Strange days!) - Metrolinx is not pushing this project down Brampton's throat. If Council does not endorse, they will stop the bulldozers at Steeles. If Brampton wants another route, ML will accommodate but Brampton has to fund it. That's a pretty respectful position.

Metrolinx was created because the individual municipalities were not working as a team and there needed to be an overall choreographer/mediator to unify the planning. I think they are showing leadership by refusing to allow a single municipal council to push the plan off a rationally thought-out framework. (yes, relatively speaking, it is rationally thought out - the only logical end point for this routing is the GO station and BT terminal in downtown Brampton. )

Brampton Council's initial position was a knee-jerk 'No' without even articulating a competing vision for their own downtown. Deferring to that quality of input would not constitute leadership. A little tough love is constructive here.

Yes, an east-west routing might be more useful for Brampton, but a lot of money has been invested already in Zum along that path and Zum has not maxxed out in capacity. So it's not the right time to switch modalities.

I'm still waiting, however, for ML to make good on the commitment for a 29-train GO train service to Brampton as repeatedly articulated as far back as 2010. No funds available for that? Go ahead, Brampton Council, make my day.

- Paul
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Strange times indeed because my personal opinion is to be opposed to this LRT at all (not going to restate why...it goes way back to the early days of this thread) but if they are going to go ahead with this LRT then the simplest most logical route is the one that goes straight up Main.....that said, I am very uncomfortable with, all of a sudden, ML adopting a "our way or the highway" approach now, on this project when they have been far more open to local input/concerns on previous projects.
 
We could waste years on transit planning political back-and-forth that does nothing to improve projects, or we could build more transit cheaper and faster. The former is great for grandstanding, the latter is great for the public interest.
 
mpd618 said:
We could waste years on transit planning political back-and-forth that does nothing to improve projects, or we could build more transit cheaper and faster. The former is great for grandstanding, the latter is great for the public interest.
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If that is the position...fine, I can live with that....but it better be evenly applied to all municipalities....and that is far from what we have right now!
 
TOareaFan said:
Far be it for me to tell the province how/where/when to spend their money but what you are advocating there is that Metrolinx decides what transit is built where and local government's input is valueless......that may be how it should be in your mind but it certainly has not been how it has been done to this point in time.
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Metrolinx already said Brampton's on the hook for any alternative plan, so if Brampton wants more Zum service, they can pay for it.
A once in a lifetime opportunity to finally build much needed rapid transit on Hurontario and Brampton will throw it away. Downtown Brampton deserves to stay a stagnant dump
 
City Staff and Metrolinx have responded to additional questions/concerns/issues raised by Councils ahead of the big vote on July 8th.

Here's a link to the FULL agenda package, including deputations and the City/Metrolinx responses: http://bit.ly/July8FullAgenda [warning: 16MB PDF]

The City/Metrolinx responses start on page 115. Also, they've provided two maps:

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JayBeeGooner said:
Metrolinx already said Brampton's on the hook for any alternative plan, so if Brampton wants more Zum service, they can pay for it.
A once in a lifetime opportunity to finally build much needed rapid transit on Hurontario and Brampton will throw it away. Downtown Brampton deserves to stay a stagnant dump
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Precisely my point....ML has not given any similar "take this or get nothing" approach with any other municipality or any other project.
 
Option 3 is dead, as there is no way you will able to make a right turn on to Main without turning on to the southbound lane first and then crossover to the north lane.

Option 2 is the best option and would require closing off Nelson St and teaing everything down along it as well coming off Queen. You are better off tearing down the buildings on the west side of Main at the station.

If the Main LRT is to go north at some future date like it should, need room on Main for that station since you will not be able to turn into the Main Station without pushing Queen Station further to the west in line with Main. Everything 50' west of Main will have to be underground and the Queen Station will have an impact on the parking garage for the building north of it.

The development proposed to take place at Main & Nelson will have to be reduce is size, disappear or have some of it built over the Queen line, which mean taking land to the east of it for it.

Even going BRT will have the same impact as an LRT. and this is where Option 1 becomes the prefer choice assuming Mills Grade Separation doesn't happen. You could build a loop there to turn the buses.

Some hard choice to make for Queen Line and will be expensive, but needs to be done now.
 
So if this ends at Steeles, this will merely be the Hurontario LRT?

Regarding Queen Street, I think Option 2 is a winner, since the redevelopment of the area could be packaged with putting in a third track for GO.
 
Where would Toronto be today if Transit City stay on the rail with various changes to various flaw??

Sheppard would be up and running, work taking place on the SRT extension to be ready to start the SRT conversion this fall.

If Brampton goes to the wild side tomorrow, they only have themselves to blame for the mess that will show up over the next 20 years by not doing the right thing, as well looking at a gift house that has left the barn.
 
Good article by Matt Elliott comparing Toronto's LRT decision history with the choice Brampton City Council is about to make.

Toronto’s LRT mistakes could be Brampton’s lessons

Stop me if you’ve heard this one before.

The provincial government announces funding for a transit project in an Ontario municipality. The project has been studied and studied again, and is generally recognized as a cost-effective and beneficial solution.

But instead of accepting the cash on the table and providing their seal of approval, local politicians demand changes that put the project at risk.


Sounds like Toronto, doesn’t it? But nah. Today we’re talking about Brampton and their ongoing political battle about the Hurontario-Main LRT.

If you haven’t been paying attention to our 905 neighbours lately, here’s the short version. The Hurontario-Main plan is a surface light rail line running in the middle of the street that will connect the Port Credit GO Station in Mississauga with the Brampton GO Station. The recommended line is a straight shot north-south route along Hurontario Street in Mississauga and Main Street in Brampton.

According to staff reports, an LRT along this route will offer significant benefits, improving transit travel times — from a projected 75 minutes to 46 minutes by 2031 — and drawing future ridership to the tune of about 34 million per year. After the provincial government announced they’d kick in $1.6 billion to cover the full cost of the entire project, it looked like a slam dunk.

But while the routing through Mississauga seems to enjoy broad support, some Brampton councillors and community members have dug up reasons to oppose the planned route through their city. Last fall, Brampton Council voted 10-1 against the Main Street route, asking for a report on a tangle of alternative options, all of which were ultimately rejected.

Now, with a new provincial commitment to fund the project and a new Brampton mayor at the helm, the LRT is set to return to council tomorrow for another vote. Despite the provincial investment, indications are that Brampton council could still vote to reject the Main Street route.

Critics cite the typical reasons people come up with to oppose LRT — traffic, noise, vague notions of wasted tax dollars — but one of the biggest bones of contention has to do, somewhat surprisingly, with heritage. The LRT line will apparently wreak havoc with Brampton’s historic downtown. In March, a representative from the Brampton Historical Society explained they “don’t think a railway and the heritage district are compatible.”

While I won’t dispute that Brampton has a very nice historic downtown area, the notion that LRT isn’t compatible with historic areas is ridiculous.

An analysis by transit advocacy group CodeRedTO counted 80 surface rail systems worldwide that began operation before 1896. Many of them run through areas more historic than Brampton, running alongside buildings that predate the Common Era. Hell, there’s an LRT that runs right by the Colosseum in Rome.


Heritage and public transit co-existing in Rome. (Ryan Taylor/RyanTaylor1986/Flickr)

The Colosseum! That thing seems pretty old.

If those examples are somehow too European for you, consider our own streetcar system in Toronto. While not the same as LRT, Toronto’s surface rail lines don’t detract from our history — they define it. So it’s hard for me to understand how surface rail doesn’t fit with heritage.

But maybe I’m just missing something. After all, I’m an outsider looking in on this issue and I wouldn’t presume to tell Brampton’s elected representatives how to vote on a Brampton issue.

I will provide a cautionary tale, however. Because it’s relevant.

Back in 2010, Toronto was in a situation much like Brampton is today. The provincial government had committed about $8 billion for four LRT lines collectively called Transit City. Provincial agency Metrolinx had agreed to pick up the whole tab, including ongoing maintenance costs. The lines were studied. The environmental assessments were approved. Two of the lines — on Finch West and Sheppard East — were set to be open by now, in time for the Pan Am Games.

But Toronto politicians balked. The new mayor opposed the plan. Members of council didn’t speak up or fight for it. The plan changed, and then changed again. Subsequent elections at both the provincial and municipal level warped things further.

Five years later, as a result of political meddling, Toronto currently only has one of the four planned LRT lines under construction. Another might begin construction within the next decade. The third has morphed into a subway line, a decision that prompted a significant property tax increase. The fourth is probably dead.

For all that, Toronto was forced to pay the provincial government $75 million in cancellation costs.

The point is simple. There will be consequences if Brampton politicians decide to reject or significantly modify the studied and funded transit plan in front of them. Those consequences could come in the form of additional costs, or delayed and cancelled transit.

Trust me — we’ve been down this road before. Toronto politicians have a rich history of looking our transit gift horses in the mouth and then beating those same horses to death.

I hope Brampton can learn from those mistakes.
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