doady said:
I say about half of the stops recommended north of Eglinton should be removed. No point in minmizing walking distance along sections where there not many people to begin with. Since all stops are mandatory, there had better be enough people using them.
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Look at the distance between the stops and then look where the first street is in from Hurontario St to see what the walking distance is that you want removed. Now, ppl are going to go past that first street.

Don't forget there a huge chunk of land that not even developed at this time. If we want ppl to use transit to get to work, you cannot have these looooong walking distance during the winter months.

Blame the City for allowing that low density north of Eglinton as I fought for higher density there. This applies to other major Avenue.

You need to start putting your 2 cents at Planning and Development as well Council before tell ppl they have to walk long distance to a stop. Come on out Nov 30 regarding the development for Eglinton and Hurontario with the meeting starting at 7pm in council chambers.
 
drum118 said:
Lets look at some things. (Recommended stop) by the consultants

## (My stops) as you need to look at the road system around these stops how riders are going to get there as they are not grid blocks. Also, some have higher ridership than proposed now and in the future. Anything over 400m radius will end up been over 1,000m walking distance. Anything over 10 minute in walking distance will chase riders away and that a known fact.

From Lake Shore
Park St .26km (Recommended stop)##
Inglewood .63 ##
Mineola 1.02 (Recommended stop)##
Stop
Stop ? ##
South Service Rd 2.05 (Recommended stop)##
North Service Rd 2.3 (Recommended stop)
Sherobee 2.64 ##
Queensway 2.95 (Recommended stop)
Pasiley 3.23 (Recommended stop) ##
King St
Dundas 3.93 (Recommended stop) ##
Hillcrest 4.36
John St/Cooksville 4.59 (Recommended stop) ##
Stop 1212 4.82
Fairview 5.09 ##
Central Parkway 5.37 (Recommended stop)
Elm Dr 5.56 ##
Mathew Gates 5.87
Burnhamthorpe 6.03 (Recommended stop) Not a very high transfer point for westbound let alone east.
Robert Speck 6.23
Kingsbridge 7.67 (Recommended stop) ##
Eglinton 8.1 (Recommended stop) ##
Nahainway 8.5
Stop ? 8.71 ##
Trailway 8.95 (Recommended stop) ##
Bristrol 9.32 (Recommended stop)##
Barondale 9.7
Matheson 10.09 (Recommended stop) ##
Watline 10.34
Trader 10.63 (Recommended stop) ##
Britannia 11.15 (Recommended stop) ##
World Vision 12.26 (Recommended stop) ##
Annagem 12.61
Courtneypark 12.84 (Recommended stop) ##
Ambassador 13.16
Superior 13.46 (Recommended stop) ##
Admiral 13.83 ##
Derry 14.22 (Recommended stop) ##
Top Flight 14.86 ##
407 BRT Station 15.02 (Recommended stop) ##
Ray Lawson 16.19 (Recommended stop) ##
Sir Loo 17.33 (Recommended stop) ##
Steeles 17.33 #

As you can see I agree with a fair number of the proposed recommend stops, but others needed to be added or move due higher ridership or walking distance that are not in a straight line or as the crows flies.

You need to know what your ridership is for **ALL** the stops before saying these are the stops locations. Since I have years of data, I can make the call. Cooksville is heading for a major overhaul, but Paisley will see more ridership than Queensway now or in the future.

A number of of stops have the wrong bus location as well what impact the relocation of those bus routes will have on operation as well riders. Central Parkway see's no 62 or 3 on weekdays. 62 will be the next route to be cut.
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There seems a bit many stops for my liking. What is the estimated average operating speed for the Hurontario LRT? Is it finally being recommended as LRT yet? There's no way this route could be BRT, in my opinion.

As for the suggestion that it be a subway LRT--that'd be expensive. Hurontario is a looooong street. IIRC they're considering some tunneling in downtown Brampton due to lack of the space. I don't think tunneling on Hurontario in general is needed. The street has a very large ROW, and they could go under some major intersections (e.g. Dundas, Eglinton, Steeles) but that's about all I think would be cost-effective.

As for a subway to MCC, it's on SOS's long-term plans, but it requires the city to get behind it. As there is (currently) no political support, we can settle for LRT on Hurontario and Dundas for now. But the Bloor line needs to at least reach Sherway in my opinion. There's no reason not too. Once that happens, the MT buses can stop at East Mall before continuing on to Kipling and Islington as they do now, if they want, although I don't see many people continuing on the bus if they can get off at East Mall.
 
drum118 said:
Look at the distance between the stops and then look where the first street is in from Hurontario St to see what the walking distance is that you want removed. Now, ppl are going to go past that first street.

Don't forget there a huge chunk of land that not even developed at this time. If we want ppl to use transit to get to work, you cannot have these looooong walking distance during the winter months.

Blame the City for allowing that low density north of Eglinton as I fought for higher density there. This applies to other major Avenue.
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Between Matheson and the 407 is within the airport operating area. Not much the city can do about that. So there should not be so many LRT stops where residential development is prohibited.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
There seems a bit many stops for my liking. What is the estimated average operating speed for the Hurontario LRT? Is it finally being recommended as LRT yet? There's no way this route could be BRT, in my opinion.

As for the suggestion that it be a subway LRT--that'd be expensive. Hurontario is a looooong street. IIRC they're considering some tunneling in downtown Brampton due to lack of the space. I don't think tunneling on Hurontario in general is needed. The street has a very large ROW, and they could go under some major intersections (e.g. Dundas, Eglinton, Steeles) but that's about all I think would be cost-effective.

As for a subway to MCC, it's on SOS's long-term plans, but it requires the city to get behind it. As there is (currently) no political support, we can settle for LRT on Hurontario and Dundas for now. But the Bloor line needs to at least reach Sherway in my opinion. There's no reason not too. Once that happens, the MT buses can stop at East Mall before continuing on to Kipling and Islington as they do now, if they want, although I don't see many people continuing on the bus if they can get off at East Mall.
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Yeah I find it odd that Drum's advocating for even more stops than what's recommended, which is also too generous. If they're going to implement that then they may as well keep the existing 19 bus with virtually all the stops in tact. To answer your question, it's been finalized as a LRT on Mississauga's end, but Zum along Main St in Brampton may complicate matters.

The LRT should be a subway from Lakeshore Rd to just north of Eglinton and again from north of Nanwood to Neilson St. The total length of a line to downtown Brampton is 19 km, only 9 km of which would be tunneled. LRT tunnels unlike HRT tunnels come with several inherent cost-saving provisions (shorter platforms; narrower turning radii permissible for more efficient and practical ROW alignments; shallower stations to down the upfront and ongoing maintenance costs of elevators/escalators; cut-n-cover method or stacked single tunnel vs. dual-tunnel bores; having private landowners be responsible for building integration). We save on bus terminals because in most cases it'd just be curb-side let on/off, although a new terminus at Kingsbridge is necessary (thinking of routes 7, 10, 19A/B, 34, 35, 68 and 89). Hurontario, unlike Toronto, would do very well with LRT given the current levels of demand aren't yet in the HRT subway range unlike parts of Eglinton, Don Mills, Sheppard East, SCC and airport area.

I can respect your insistence to keep B-D to MCC on the agenda but even in the absence of Mayor Hazel, you'll still have a hard time convincing the levels of gov't and transit operators involved that it is a worthwhile endeavor. You'd have an easier time convincing Mississauga to run a limited-stopping LRT line adjacent the rail corridor that runs into a proposed Sherway Gdns Stn (or perhaps the cost-savings of navigating the hydro corridor/Etobicoke Creek region at-grade are such that the subway could actually continue from Sherway to Dixie-Dundas, terminating there). Per a third track in the Hurontario LRT tunnel, riders from SQ1 would still be treated to a fully exclusive ROW commute to the subway at which point the transfer's only one level down. You can't aim too high on one issue lest you come across as too greedy, jeopardizing the credibility of all of the SOS plan. Some compromises need to be made and frankly, this one doesn't seem all that disastrous. At the very least the interline can quell your concerns about the ownership of the Milton Sub being an impediment to REX or more rapid GO train service. Dually pushing for both projects (REX and Hurontario-rail corridor LRT) ensures most rider niches are being covered.
 
That list by drum has WAY too many stops. This is LRT, not bus service. Stops should be at major intersections only.
So for example:

  • Cooksville GO
  • Central Parkway
  • Burnhamthorpe
  • Robert Speck

No need at all to stop at Fairview, Elm, or Matthew's Gate.
To walk to any of these from the stops I listed above would you take you 2 minutes.
 
khristopher said:
That list by drum has WAY too many stops. This is LRT, not bus service. Stops should be at major intersections only.
So for example:

  • Cooksville GO
  • Central Parkway
  • Burnhamthorpe
  • Robert Speck

No need at all to stop at Fairview, Elm, or Matthew's Gate.
To walk to any of these from the stops I listed above would you take you 2 minutes.
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My stops are marked ## and the list is what there today.

Cooksville GO stop service both Hillcrest area and the GO Station. It will be a longer walking distance for the TLK kids with no stop at Hillcrest like there is today.

Fairview service the ring roads and roads that have next to no access to the Cooksville station other than a long walk over 1,000m

Central Parkway sees no bus connection and a very low ridership stop in the first place. Can be serve by Elm or Fariview as it would be in the walking distance.

Elm sees way more ridership than CP as well been service by #8 and #3 buses. You will never see 3 go back to its old route.

When you look at the transferring between 19 and 26, you are lucky to see 100 riders doing this a day going east and less than that for west.

I fail to mark Robert Speck as the walking distance to Sq One is not much more than it is today from MCC terminal. Now how do you connect to the other bus route with the existing terminal stay where it is become a major issue if a new terminal is not built near 19. The current terminal is out data and will never handle the future ridership.

AS I said before, you need to understand where your ridership points are to say this should be here or not.

Just because there is no residential north of Matheson doesn't mean you will not have riders going to/from work. New zoning requires building to be more than 1 story and prefer to be 4 min. This has happen in the Airport corporation centre.

If you look at the current 202 ridership for your stops, next to no riders getting on or off. There is no stop at Cooksville and something I have try to get before 202 came out.

Find sometime to ride the 19/202 to do a ridership count for stops to see how many riders get on/off and it will surprise you. I have years of data to back my claim up. Even look at off peak and the weekend as they tell a story too.

Pick some points at the far end of a 400m and 500m radius to see what the real walking distance is for your stops.

NOTE: If I was to use CP in place of Elm, 15 minute walking distance. Using Burnhamthorpe 18 minutes. If these changes take place, I'm packing transit in and going back to the car.
 
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I'm with Drum on this one. This isn't the city where people are already generally willing to walk a fair distance to the stop - this is the suburbs.

A close friend of mine would rather drive all the way downtown from Brampton then spend 15 minutes on a connecting bus from the last train that only goes as far as Bramalea.

We'll need more of a push to get suburbanites to choose transit. That means premium-branded services and more stops. Even if it's just smoke and mirrors, it can make the difference between average ridership and excellent ridership.
 
RedRocket191 said:
I'm with Drum on this one. This isn't the city where people are already generally willing to walk a fair distance to the stop - this is the suburbs.
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Give us a break. This ain't Orange County or Livonia. And Hurontario is not exactly what I call a typical suburban corridor, otherwise we wouldn't even be any discussion or LRT right now, or even of BRT for that matter.

If all suburbanites are really so lazy to walk to rapid transit stations, then maybe a certain forum member (who shall not be named) is right. Forget the Hurontario LRT, just stick with the route 19 bus. Hurontario cannot support LRT, because Mississauga is a suburb.
 
RedRocket191 said:
I'm with Drum on this one. This isn't the city where people are already generally willing to walk a fair distance to the stop - this is the suburbs.

A close friend of mine would rather drive all the way downtown from Brampton then spend 15 minutes on a connecting bus from the last train that only goes as far as Bramalea.
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lest you think so, your friend is not that unique. That bus that meets the 6:45 train discourages (IMO) a lot of people from using GO from Brampton. It is only a 15 minute bus ride but there is something quite psychological about getting taken off the train and what should be an 8 minute train journey turns into a 15 minute bus trip with stops along the way.....I am, normally, quite a rational person but the few times a year that I take that trip it drives me nuts!!!

I believe that the sooner they can get those "stop at Bramalea" trains going right through to Brampton and Mt. Pleasant 2 things will happen:

1. a general increase in ridership on that line.
2. a reduction of traffic within brampton as people who actually live closer to Brampton station stop driving to Bramalea just so that they can get the "full" service. (of course the limiter on this one will be the lower parking availibility at Brampton).

Off topic but you hit a bit of a nerve ;)

To get back on topic, though, I think what will get suburbanites using transit is if it looked and felt like downtown....so, even if it is not a subway, if it had stop spacing and speed that felt like it was. The flip side to too many stops is that well, there are too many stops and it starts to feel like a bus and takes a long way to get where you are ultimately going.

I am not a transit engineer/designer but the way I would approach something like this is to try and get a handle (polling/interviews/etc) on what trip length (in minutes not km) would attract the most people....then place the absolutely "must have" stops on the line....figure out how many more stops you could add and still meet the time expectations indicated in your market research, then place those in the next most logical places....you might end up with a nifty little compromise between too many stops and too long a walk....sort of a goldilocks and the three bears "just right" number of stops!
 
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You have to think also, that if 15 minute bus ride seems so inconvenient for people, what they would think about an LRT line that stops as often as a regular bus.

And with any higher order transit line such as the Hurontario LRT, all stops are mandatory. Buses can skip empty stops, LRT can't, so stops had better have high ridership.

The overall stop spacing and the amount of stops recommended by either the consultant or Drum118 overall seems fine to me actually. Their recommended 600-700m average stop spacing is similar to the Bloor subway and the Yonge subway south of Bloor. The space along Yonge is much higher north of Bloor. I think that is important to consider.

So the problem I actually had is where the stops are distributed, and with both I feel there are too many north of Matheson. An industrial area doesn't need so many, since there is no 24/7 ridership. South of the QEW there are also too many stops for such a low density area with no potential for intensification.

I think the stops should be:

1. Queen/GO
2. Mineola
3. North Service
4. Sherobee
5. Paisley
6. Dundas
7. John/GO
8. Fairview
9. Elm
10. Burnhamthorpe
11. Robert Speck
12. Rathburn
13. Kingsbridge/Elia
14. Eglinton
15. Ceremonial/Nahini
16. Bristol
17. Matheson
18. Britannia
19. Courtneypark
20. Derry
21. 407/GO
22. Ray Lawson
23. Sir Lou
24. Steeles

Same amount of stops as the consultant and 6 less than Drum118. So an average 710m spacing, but 400-500m spacings between Eglinton and North Service, and approx 1km spacings in industrial and other low density sections.
 
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So everyone is assuming that this will stop at Steeles? You only need 4-5 stops to complete this.

24. Shoppers World Terminal (to be located at Bartley Bull and Main)
25. Elgin
26. Nanwood/Etobicoke Creek
26a: Wellington/City Hall (depending on alignment)
27. Downtown Brampton (Main/Nelson?)
 
doady said:
You have to think also, that if 15 minute bus ride seems so inconvenient for people, what they would think about an LRT line that stops as often as a regular bus.
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My point (not well made) is that this is a particularly irritating 15 minute bus ride because it comes at the end of a train ride that people think should just keep going and they have to get off a train onto a bus and double the journey time at the same cost as if the train kept going.....so it is not really just the fact that it is a bus ride.
 
It's not as bad as the old days with the Orenda Road scenic tour because the bus loop was so poorly designed. The new loop at least is closer to the platform, and with buses actually able to exit west onto Steeles, has shaved 6-7 minutes off the ride.

Yes, it was a pet peeve of mine too.
 
ShonTron said:
So everyone is assuming that this will stop at Steeles? You only need 4-5 stops to complete this.

24. Shoppers World Terminal (to be located at Bartley Bull and Main)
25. Elgin
26. Nanwood/Etobicoke Creek
26a: Wellington/City Hall (depending on alignment)
27. Downtown Brampton (Main/Nelson?)
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No, as I have not done the the distance to the stop there as yet. I want to recheck somethings first before I say where stop should be other than Downtown.

I would say off hand that 26a and 26 would be a good location as well one in between them as the school is a high tripper.

Steeles is Shoppers connection.

25 is another good location.
 
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