[k10ery]

Ummm there are no peak pph ridership numbers in that report.

Yes, as I wrote.

They project around 2000 ppph for each of the two routes (i.e. the straight through route and the diversion) in the southern segment, which means around 4000 ppph combined. For articulated buses to move 4000 people through a single point in a single direction within one hour, assmuing a maximum capacity of 100 people for each, 40 buses operating under closed door conditions would have to pass through that point in one hour. That means even if the frequency of a BRT service were 90 seconds, and the buses would still be crush loaded.

That's interesting, I must be confused. Can you quote from the report? What I see (p. 103) is:

"BRT headway is based on a forecast peak point demand
of 2,850 peak hour peak direction riders. Using 60 foot
articulated buses with a capacity of 90 passengers,
headways of 1.58 minutes would be required to meet this
demand."

Sounds like less than crush load in their calculations. And OC Transpo says they manage 10,000 ppph and headways of one minute with BRT. Why is this not comparable?

Another interesting thing in this report is to report a benefit-cost ratio relative to the do-nothing option, instead of relative to zero which the natural and meaningful thing. So by making do-nothing look bad they can get the BCR as high as they want. Clever, I must say.

 

[k10ery]

As stated in the BCA, BRT alone will not be able to handle the anticipated 2021 ridership projections. The CB is not evaluated as a result, though the expected benefit and costs had been calculated.

Good point. You're right.

Oh, except:

1. The projections are for 2031, not 2021 - i.e. let's build now for demand 20 years from now.
2. BRT could indeed handle the 2031 projected demand - see the quote in my previous post.
3. The 2031 projections are in any case based on a truly phenomenal modal share for transit.
4. A BCR is indeed reported for BRT. it is 1.7.

You might be thinking of the Yonge North BCA. It used that trick about "some riders would not be served by BRT in 2021 under some scenarios so we are not going to evaluate it."

 

[taal]

There's a lot of catch-22 symptons in these sort of reports - and there's nothing wrong with that.

The justification for an LRT is in many rights based on the increased development that an LRT would bring as opposed to a BRT

 

[RedRocket191]

Sounds like less than crush load in their calculations. And OC Transpo says they manage 10,000 ppph and headways of one minute with BRT. Why is this not comparable?

OC Transpo's buses can pass each other at stations. This wouldn't be practical with a ROW in the median.

 

[W. K. Lis]

OC Transpo's buses can pass each other at stations. This wouldn't be practical with a ROW in the median.

Is that an arguement against heavy rail and communter rail as well?

 

[TOareaFan]

Is that an arguement against heavy rail and communter rail as well?

Sounds eerily like the Rob Ford argument that buses are better than streetcars?

 

[SlickFranky]

Is that an arguement against heavy rail and communter rail as well?

I believe it's an explanation as to how Ottawa's BRT capacity figures can be so much higher than those estimated for Hurontario, hence the quoted reply. It's not really an argument for or against anything.

 

[gweed123]

Is that an arguement against heavy rail and communter rail as well?

It's an argument against pretty much any type of service that is only 1 lane (or track) in each direction. OC Transpo has basically done the equivalent of 4-tracking the areas around the stations. Except that's a lot easier to pull off with a BRT than it is with a rail-based system (no switches, crossovers, etc). The argument is completely independent of technology choice. It's based nearly entirely on ROW design and operational characteristics.

 

[rbt]

Is that an arguement against heavy rail and communter rail as well?

No, it's an argument for having 4 lanes or 4 tracks.

Trains on many New York lines can pass each-other just as they do in Ottawa.

2 paved lanes do not allow buses to pass each-other like the 4 lane highway Ottawa built for their bus routes.

 

[gweed123]

No, it's an argument for having 4 lanes or 4 tracks.

Trains on many New York lines can pass each-other just as they do in Ottawa.

2 paved lanes do not allow buses to pass each-other like the 4 lane highway Ottawa built for their bus routes.

I wonder how difficult it would be to add a 3rd 'middle' lane into an in-median BRT arrangement. Use it as a passing lane for both directions. I'm sure bus drivers are smart enough to figure out that if one bus is using the centre lane to bypass the station, that the other bus waiting to bypass has to wait for 10 seconds for the other one to clear, haha. The biggest issue would be if the roadway has enough space to accomodate a 3 lane median for a small stretch. I guess if you placed it far enough back from the intersection (before where the left turn lane started), it could work.

 

[Markster]

I'm not sure what kind of usage on the line you guys are anticipating that will require and/or be aided by the vehicles being able to pass each other.

Are you planning on running an express service? Express (suburban local - express to downtown) busses in Ottawa have the infamy of sending half empty busses into the downtown core where the system is effectively only "double track" in the most conjested strech.

 

[gweed123]

I'm not sure what kind of usage on the line you guys are anticipating that will require and/or be aided by the vehicles being able to pass each other.

Are you planning on running an express service? Express (suburban local - express to downtown) busses in Ottawa have the infamy of sending half empty busses into the downtown core where the system is effectively only "double track" in the most conjested strech.

Well an express service between Square One - Cooksville - B-D Subway would certainly be an asset.

 

[jwill]

An LRT express service from Square One to Kipling (assuming a future Dundas LRT) would just duplicate services on the busway from Square One to Kipling.

 

[gweed123]

An LRT express service from Square One to Kipling (assuming a future Dundas LRT) would just duplicate services on the busway from Square One to Kipling.

Except you can't really run an express service LRT in an in-median format, at least not very easily.

 

[TOareaFan]

The star reported that Mississauga's Mayor has sent a letter to premier advising that if Mayor Ford of Toronto does not want LRT money that Mississauga and Brampton are ready to go on Hurontario/Main and would take any money he turned down (essentially).