[EnviroTO]

Yes I did, I would argue that if designed well, it wouldn't use up too much park space. The park space is really only used 6 months of the year in summer while the road would be useful for 12 months of the year.

You missed your time in history. That was the standard thought process before the 80's, but the days of converting park to roads is over as it would be political suicide since most people including most on this forum would be against it. Considering the condition of transit and the car in America I would say that the day there is a freeway in Leakin Park, Baltimore is the day public thought may have shifted enough to consider your idea even remotely practical.

 

[TOareaFan]

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news/article/1620629--residents-concerned-lrt-will-kill-the-downtown

 

[Dan416]

Brampton has been involved in this project from the get go. For them to sabotage the project now is disheartening. And this is why we can't have nice things.

Reading the people's comments, it's 100% clear to me that we're dealing with NIMBYs plain and simple.

There's already been more than enough public consultation on this project.

If the LRT stops at the 407, that's quite fine with me. No one wants to go to Brampton anyway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Brampton has been involved in this project from the get go. For them to sabotage the project now is disheartening. And this is why we can't have nice things.

Reading the people's comments, it's 100% clear to me that we're dealing with NIMBYs plain and simple.

There's already been more than enough public consultation on this project.

If the LRT stops at the 407, that's quite fine with me. No one wants to go to Brampton anyway.

Yes! I've been saying that for years...this is Greater Toronto smh...

 

[TOareaFan]

Brampton has been involved in this project from the get go. For them to sabotage the project now is disheartening. And this is why we can't have nice things.

Reading the people's comments, it's 100% clear to me that we're dealing with NIMBYs plain and simple.

There's already been more than enough public consultation on this project.

If the LRT stops at the 407, that's quite fine with me. No one wants to go to Brampton anyway.

I think what the people are saying is that if you are going to disrupt a fairly significant part of town (any town) then you should show some benefit. I have been saying since the start that this offers virtually no benefit to Brampton or Bramptonians.

In reading the article I was focused on what the responses were.....seems the two "benefits" being pitched are a theoretical 47 minute trip from downtown Brampton to Port Credit GO....so is that a benefit? Who is making that trip? In rush hour that is 2 minutes more than the drive takes...where are people going on the Lakeshore line that they would take that trip in rush hour? Surely, in rush hour, they would be far better off, you know, just taking the GO train from their point of departure...no? If it is because there is a need to get to off peak trains (which are not available in Brampton) then if that is the point compare the 47 minute LRT trip (which presumably is 47 minutes at all times of the day?) to the non-rush hour travel time.

The other benefit pitched is the fact that it connects the KW GO line to the Lakeshore GO line....what benefit does this offer? Are people going to disembark from an eastbound GO train on the KW line to take a 47 minute LRT trip to the Lakeshore line to continue eastbound? Not likely.

I am opposed to this LRT (well the northern part of it anyway) not out of any NIMBY but out of a sense that we should be focused on building useful transit not just transit for the sake of it. If it ended at 407 that would be fine but, honestly, I think it should go no further north than the Mississauga Busway then it is really dealing with the real transit gridlock on Hurontario. Brampton can continue to run its Zum buses south....expand that service and anyone going further south can transfer to the LRT at the Busway or Square 1.

 

[Adjei]

Just stop the line at the border and be done with it. Seems Brampton doesn't want this line and many are opposed to it including their mayor. If you want to fight against improved transit, then you shouldn't be getting it.

 

[TOareaFan]

Just stop the line at the border and be done with it. Seems Brampton doesn't want this line and many are opposed to it including their mayor. If you want to fight against improved transit, then you shouldn't be getting it.

No one is opposed to better transit...but no one has shown that this LRT is "better transit" for the needs of Bramptonians.

Brampton, and Bramptonians, have invested a fair bit into transit...we have one of the better suburban transit systems, it continues to grow and grow in an appropriate way that improves the linkages between Brampton and places they want to go in bordering communities. I suspect that people who support the LRT are doing so on some assumption that LRT will improve people's commute....that does not seem to be the case to me....still waiting for someone/anyone to show me what the real benefit of bringing this to Brampton is.....if there is none, what portion of the $1.6B cost is involved in the Brampton leg? What else could be done with that money...I bet a fair amount.

BTW, the Mayor is, unfortunately, firmly behind this project...more the pity. The media outlets that (Guardian, Star) that ran the story that she wanted it replaced by buses had to recant that story when it was pointed out that all she said was that until this is built there should be a in interim step of running Zum buses down to Port Credit.

 

[innsertnamehere]

because it reduces travel times on bramptons busiest bus route. what more explanation is needed? It's not like this funding is going to come before all day 2 way on the Kitchener corridor. The Big move has both of them in the plan, and most of the all day 2 way GO work is already underway. All day 2 way GO isn't really going to help with the movement of people within Peel anyways, it's only good use is to get people to downtown Toronto. If you think the LRT is such a horrible waste of funding, what else would you suggest to allow people to get around the city easier on transit? you keep complaining about the LRT but then fail to produce an alternative that ends up with better results. for transit around the city, the LRT is by far the best way to spend money in brampton, and It should remain that way.

 

[TOareaFan]

because it reduces travel times on bramptons busiest bus route . what more explanation is needed?

not really....pretty sure that Brampton's busiest bus route is not on Hurontario anyway but how is the commute times of those transit riders improved? by how much? At what cost?

It's not like this funding is going to come before all day 2 way on the Kitchener corridor.

Since I was lectured earlier and called annoying, I have been avoiding that comparison and focusing on what I see is wrong (from primarily a Brampton perspective) with the LRT but, since you bring it up....no your wrong here. This has been given priority over the all day service. Ask GO/Metrolinx....there is no timeframe for all day GO.

The Big move has both of them in the plan, and most of the all day 2 way GO work is already underway.

Respectfully, your wrong again. The $1.2B of work going into the corridor is what yields the 5 additional return trips every work day. Contained in the "plan"....is a pulled out of the sky $4.9B figure that will deliver all day GO on all the other lines. Ask them how much of that is need on the KW line...go ahead (their answer will likely be very similar to the one they gave me...."we don't know".

All day 2 way GO isn't really going to help with the movement of people within Peel anyways, it's only good use is to get people to downtown Toronto.

Well, that seems to be where people are going....so does that not make the most sense? But if you think that intra-Peel travel is the top priority, how many Brampton to Mississauga trips will this help? How many of those people between Neslon and the Mississauga border are we trying to serve and, again, tell me what that Brampton portion costs and let us decide if that is worth the cost (and not just the pure cost but compare it to what that money could do elsewhere).

If you think the LRT is such a horrible waste of funding, what else would you suggest to allow people to get around the city easier on transit? you keep complaining about the LRT but then fail to produce an alternative that ends up with better results. for transit around the city, the LRT is by far the best way to spend money in brampton, and It should remain that way.

Oh but i have.......if the LRT is really needed because (in the words of Mississauga's Mayor) "South of the city is gridlock,” McCallion said. “Our priority is from the lake to the city core because that is where the congestion is." I'll take her word for that. Build the LRT from the lake to the Mississauga Busway, have it be one continuous line (no silly change of trains at SQ1). Continue to grow and augment the BT Zum system to increase frequencies and capacities and run those in one coninuous line from Sandalwood to SQ1...at the busway have an interchange where people can switch modes (depending on where they are going).

Without knowing the cost of the Brampton only section it is hard to say, but i would suggest that the LRT may be, actually, the worst way to spend money in Brampton.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I have gone over point 2 and 3 of yours before, and haven't reached an agreement, so I won't bother.

People are not going downtown. (well they are, but not exclusively) You seem to be saying we should be building 1 form of RT and ignoring the rest of peoples needs. People move in all directions, whether that be downtown or Mississauga or Kitchener or Vaughan, or somewhere else. I also dislike your use of municipal borders. when it comes to travel, people don't give a rats ass where the border between Mississauga and Brampton is. They care about where their destination is, and that is it. Downtown Brampton is a major destination, and will bring people from northern Mississauga up to use the GO line, as well as other regional transfers. if you retain bus service, you end up with capacity issues in 15 years because you are running buses every 40 seconds. (see Ottawa as an example of this) Drum118 has provided some nice examples of demand and how Buses handle it compared to LRT.

oh, and you still fail to point out where those savings would be better spent. (you have just said what would replace it)

 

[DKsan]

TOAreaFan, your argument against the LRT, of no one is travelling from Downtown Brampton to Port Credit is exactly the same argument that was used by opponents of KW's LRT line. "No one travels from one mall to another!"

That's not the point. It's not travelling between the end points. It's travelling between different points. It gives a good option for someone to go from Steeles to Eglinton, or Ray Lawson to Dundas, or what have you.

It's also good from a network stance. Aside from the GO Barrie, KW, RH, Markham lines which are unlikely to be electrified/get additional stations anytime soon, the only real rapid transit, high frequency, better stop spacing, north-south line in the GTA is the future Vaughan-Spadina-University-Yonge Line. That's it. There's nothing else. The Hurontario LRT will be the western GTA's YSUV. The Hurontario corridor is one of the busiest (if not the busiest) transit corridors in the GTA. Ignoring it because we don't get the GO train service is ridiculous and petty.

They need to resolve how they're going to bring it into DT Brampton, but let's be serious. DT Brampton is dead. There's an awesome poutine place and ice cream place and that's it. It comes to life for events and farmer's markets, but if you watch, no one goes into the stores during those events. You're not going to kill business if you route it up Hurontario. It could only get better. All those Brampton residents in 1/car are causing more congestion than any bus or LRT will.

I was a fan of the one-way loop in DT Brampton and it's unfortunate there's no effective way of building it that way.

If Brampton can't decide, at least build it to Steeles. It'll be in Brampton and connect to the southern most transit terminal.

Also, page 60-61 shows that travel demands are higher between Brampton-Mississauga than Brampton-Toronto. http://www.brampton.ca/en/Business/...l/2009/TTMP Final Report March 2010 part1.pdf

 

[TOareaFan]

I have gone over point 2 and 3 of yours before, and haven't reached an agreement, so I won't bother.

People are not going downtown. (well they are, but not exclusively) You seem to be saying we should be building 1 form of RT and ignoring the rest of peoples needs. People move in all directions, whether that be downtown or Mississauga or Kitchener or Vaughan, or somewhere else.

I am, actually, saying quite the opposite....there is no transit mode that fits all needs. I am saying if the congestion on the south end of Hurontario in Mississauga is so bad and needs a LRT then build that but the appropriate mode of "rapid" transit for the northern part is the current BRT expanded.

I also dislike your use of municipal borders. when it comes to travel, people don't give a rats ass where the border between Mississauga and Brampton is. They care about where their destination is, and that is it.

I didn't use municipal borders.....someone else suggested ending it at 407 as a proxy for the border and I said that would be ok but I would prefer that it end at the Mississauga Busway which is not a municipal border.

Downtown Brampton is a major destination, and will bring people from northern Mississauga up to use the GO line, as well as other regional transfers. if you retain bus service, you end up with capacity issues in 15 years because you are running buses every 40 seconds. (see Ottawa as an example of this) Drum118 has provided some nice examples of demand and how Buses handle it compared to LRT.

I highly doubt that Hurontario from Brampton to SQ1/Busway would ever get to the usage that you had/needed buses every 40 seconds.

oh, and you still fail to point out where those savings would be better spent. (you have just said what would replace it)

Well that is difficult to say without knowing what the cost saving is/would be by not building the northern half......I think some money invested in expanding the Zum could be spent....but I am sure there are, GTA wide, lots of areas where the saving could be spent.

 

[TOareaFan]

TOAreaFan, your argument against the LRT, of no one is travelling from Downtown Brampton to Port Credit is exactly the same argument that was used by opponents of KW's LRT line. "No one travels from one mall to another!"

That's not the point. It's not travelling between the end points. It's travelling between different points. It gives a good option for someone to go from Steeles to Eglinton, or Ray Lawson to Dundas, or what have you.

I pointed out the responses of the officials to that public gathering giving this 47 minute ride between Brampton and Port Credit as one of the only two benefits that they are pitching. I agree with you but no one is showing what the benefit (relative to current options) is of those shorter trips are. I suspect they are marginal and I suspect that is why the proponents of this show the "benefits" on the longer trips because it makes their option look better.

It's also good from a network stance. Aside from the GO Barrie, KW, RH, Markham lines which are unlikely to be electrified/get additional stations anytime soon, the only real rapid transit, high frequency, better stop spacing, north-south line in the GTA is the future Vaughan-Spadina-University-Yonge Line. That's it. There's nothing else. The Hurontario LRT will be the western GTA's YSUV. The Hurontario corridor is one of the busiest (if not the busiest) transit corridors in the GTA. Ignoring it because we don't get the GO train service is ridiculous and petty.

What are the benefits of this network to the constituents? The people who will pay for it and will/will not use those benefits. If the Hurontario corridor is one of the busiest transit corridors in the GTA (no way its the busiest) then that must be in the south end because it is not even close to being the busiest in the north end.

All I have said relative to the GO is that this LRT is should be no where near the top priority for Brampton's transit needs.

They need to resolve how they're going to bring it into DT Brampton, but let's be serious. DT Brampton is dead. There's an awesome poutine place and ice cream place and that's it. It comes to life for events and farmer's markets, but if you watch, no one goes into the stores during those events. You're not going to kill business if you route it up Hurontario. It could only get better. All those Brampton residents in 1/car are causing more congestion than any bus or LRT will.

You are arguing points I never made so I will leave those to be responded to by people who are making them.

I was a fan of the one-way loop in DT Brampton and it's unfortunate there's no effective way of building it that way.

If Brampton can't decide, at least build it to Steeles. It'll be in Brampton and connect to the southern most transit terminal.

I reaffirm that I believe the best place to terminate the LRT is the busway...."Brampton", however seems to have decided to waste valuable resources bringing it all the way to Nelson.

Also, page 60-61 shows that travel demands are higher between Brampton-Mississauga than Brampton-Toronto. http://www.brampton.ca/en/Business/...l/2009/TTMP Final Report March 2010 part1.pdf

Interesting that you would quote that study, I actually have read that report before and find it to be the most compelling evidence that there is no need for the LRT to extend to Brampton.....of course there is the difference between comparing Mississauga destinations and Downtown Toronto....DT Toronto has an identified transit hub at Union that all transit commuters (from all cities) are pointed to....so the Toronto commuters in the report you link to are far more servable by one transit investment than the Mississauga commuters.

I have never questioned that there is a fare amount of traffic between Brampton and Mississauga but it is not exclusively (or even predominantly) along the corridor that this LRT serves. Ask yourself, how many of those inter-city trips are improved by this LRT? How many people travelling from Brampton to Mississauga in the morning are in an easy reach of that stretch of Brampton the LRT serves? How many of them are headed to that part of Mississauga that the LRT serves? It is a small percentage so if the goal is to serve that constituency this LRT fails miserably.

I don't actually know how many people are commuting from Brampton to Mississauga and what the exact destination of their commutes are but there are hints that a significant sum of them are not headed to or from places served by the LRT.

One hint (sorry has to be anecdotal) is that Hurontario is not the only (or most) congested n/s road headed out of Brampton....another is that a lot of Mississaugas employment lands are not on/near Hurontario (Airport, Airport business park, all the industrial lands, the businesses in the Erin Mills/401 area) and are not served by the LRT.

Another hint might just lie in this image taken from the same report you point to.

The numbers are bit dated (pre-Zum) but they clearly point to something.....the Hurontario/Main corridor is no where near the top of the list on ridership.

Since a fair number of those routes in that chart also extend into Mississauga, I think it is a fair to guess that it also does not deliver the most Bramptonians to/from Mississauga.

Yes, I believe that all day GO trains are/should be a higher priority to Brampton's transit needs than this LRT but, even without that bias, it is very difficult to see what benefits this expenditure will deliver. Again, I think the "best" plan would be an interchange station at the busway with LRT going south to the lake and Zum going north.

 

[ShonTron]

I reaffirm that I believe the best place to terminate the LRT is the busway...."Brampton", however seems to have decided to waste valuable resources bringing it all the way to Nelson.

Busway? What busway? Or are you talking about the one supposedly planned for the 407 corridor? Because there's nothing better than to force a transfer in the middle of a hydrofield next to a toll road when there's medium and high density uses a mere 1 kilometre north and a major transit node 4 kilometres north. Also note that the level of service currently at the 407 and Hurontario is rather weak; just a branch of the 407 west service to York University/Meadowvale/Guelph.

Also note that Brampton wants a busway in the centre of Queen Street, and it too is in Metrolinx' next wave projects.

Seriously, I'd like to know what makes you think that forcing a useless transfer at a toll road will suddenly speed up GO train improvements to Downtown Brampton, or is it just a red herring because you don't want to share Main Street with light rail vehicles? And why are you even opposed to a Shoppers World terminus?

 

[TOareaFan]

Busway? What busway?

http://www7.mississauga.ca/Documents/tw/transitway/MississaugaBusRapidTransitProject_FullMap.pdf