[TOareaFan]

TOareaFan, you are starting to get annoying. I want all-day service on the Milton Line as well, but I am smart enough to realize that shit has nothing to do with the Hurontario-Main LRT. Metrolinx made the LRT a priority simply because the Cities of Brampton and Mississauga made it a priority. It has nothing to do with GO Transit. GO Transit isn't pushing for this, and it isn't paying $1.6 billion for this. Stop whining, seriously. This thread is about the LRT, not the GO Train.

Sorry to annoy you...didn't realize that disagreeing with something was not allowed and, for the most part, all I have been doing is responding to points others are making.

Metrolinx and GO are, for all intents and purposes, the same so when Metrolinx puts this in its priority bucket a decade or so ahead of all day GO trains then GO is part of that decision.

The city of Brampton has never prioritized this over all day GO....they have just never had the guts to say "no this should wait" until they get the all day GO they want....I imagine they sense that it is this or nothing and that seems like shabby planning.

If my posts annoy you, I guess you could just not read them.....afterall, my name is the first part of the post

 

[drum118]

I am sorry for the people who are demanding the funding from the LRT be invested in all day service on the KW line, but there is a bigger picture and world out there that doesn't revolved around the core of Toronto.

The bulk of the money for Phase 1 of the Big Move money is being spent on GO that carries a faction of ridership than all the transit systems in the area, most of all TTC. These transit systems are seeing next to nothing being spent on them today or 25 years from now. It has been all about GO from day one.

Sure York getting their BRT because of backroom deals just like TTC.

There is currently no network in the area to move people to where they want to go to without being funnel to an area/spot because transit is setup that way today before they can get to where they want to go in the first place.

There are some people here who lack the vision what a true network should look like based on what is here today, not down the road.

As for the comment in the BramptonGuardianMay 9, better look at the tape of council meeting, as that what not said, unless of was after the meeting. I was at Council meeting and never heard it other than what I posted above.

City Staff supports the LRT along with Brampton Staff regardless the areas where ridership will be low, as there empty fields there or low density now. Any route in any transit systems will have low density along it and should those lines not have the same service as rest of the line.

For those who bitch about ridership for the LRT, better check with Brampton Transit to see what the numbers are today for 502 with 1 campus of Sheridan College in place at SQ One and you will be surprise at those number. I know I am. MT carries over 28,000 riders along on Hurontario today. Once the other 3 campus get built, what do you think will happen to ridership?? At the same time, how many residents from each city work in the other city and what will it look like when more employment gets built???

Again it it "ALL about ME" and I don't care about others that is coming out clear to me or NIMBY thinking related to this LRT by a few people here.

The LRT is the backbone for the region as well encourage more people to use transit, but most of all LRT, will meet future ridership demand at a far less cost than a BRT. It well drive development faster.

I have the Milton line near me, but never use it as it doesn't get me to where I want to go to in Toronto. If it did, I am spending 3 fares to do so.

If and when the Brampton Line got extended north to the city limit, this area will see the biggest make over since there not much on the southern side that can be redeveloped.

As to Caladon, they don't want transit and have done everything to keep it out.

Was reading a data recovery report last night that was sent to Metrolinx in 2008 where I call for this LRT line to be extended to Orangeville at some future date. Going out on a lamb, it could run to Own Sound using the old CP ROW that still exist today way down the road or an update GO line.

The sooner the LRT is built, the greater the impact it will have on everyone from better service, faster service, more development and so on as this is the future to deal with traffic issues as well moving people.

I will be calling for the city to go alone in getting this line built starting in 2016 if Metrolinx is not prepared to fund this line by then or before 2020, as we cannot wait for Metrolinx anymore. This will require the city to go to the Bond market as well doing a full P3 plan. Talking is over and time for doing it. The line cannot get built until 2016 due to trunk-line work on Hurontario to start next year that will have a major impact on traffic and transit for a few years. Could start building some sections before then, but the yard would be a good starting point.

 

[TOareaFan]

I am sorry for the people who are demanding the funding from the LRT be invested in all day service on the KW line, but there is a bigger picture and world out there that doesn't revolved around the core of Toronto.

I am not saying spend the LRT money on all day GO trains on the KW line....I am saying run all day GO trains on the KW line in 2015 as a pre-requisite for moving forward. If this line is about interconnectivity, it would seem that having all day GO trains will contribute to its success. Moving all day GO service out a decade or so and pushing this is a failure in priority setting.

The bulk of the money for Phase 1 of the Big Move money is being spent on GO that carries a faction of ridership than all the transit systems in the area, most of all TTC. These transit systems are seeing next to nothing being spent on them today or 25 years from now. It has been all about GO from day one.

A large chunk of the phase 1 money was spent on the KW line. It now (now=2015 post construction) has the capacity to run hourly GO trains off peak 7 days a week.

Sure York getting their BRT because of backroom deals just like TTC.

The "plan" seems very malleable for political reasons.....why you can even get a stop put back on the Crosstown at Leslie that next to no one sees as valuable if you make a bit of a squawk....I just think that Brampton should squawk about all day GO.

There is currently no network in the area to move people to where they want to go to without being funnel to an area/spot because transit is setup that way today before they can get to where they want to go in the first place.

There are some people here who lack the vision what a true network should look like based on what is here today, not down the road.

If you are implying that this LRT creates a "true network" how is that possible if two of the major components of the network have such limited service and, as such, have very little ability to feed this part of the network.

As for the comment in the BramptonGuardianMay 9, better look at the tape of council meeting, as that what not said, unless of was after the meeting. I was at Council meeting and never heard it other than what I posted above.

I hope you are not denying she said it? Here is the article, it is a direct quote of her answer to a post meeting media question.

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news/article/1615544--mccallion-opposes-fennell-s-zum-bus-plan

City Staff supports the LRT along with Brampton Staff regardless the areas where ridership will be low, as there empty fields there or low density now. Any route in any transit systems will have low density along it and should those lines not have the same service as rest of the line.

For those who bitch about ridership for the LRT, better check with Brampton Transit to see what the numbers are today for 502 with 1 campus of Sheridan College in place at SQ One and you will be surprise at those number. I know I am. MT carries over 28,000 riders along on Hurontario today. Once the other 3 campus get built, what do you think will happen to ridership?? At the same time, how many residents from each city work in the other city and what will it look like when more employment gets built???

Sure there are people in Brampton that work in Mississauga, but they don't all work on/just off Hurontario and they certainly don't all live near main street south of Nelson....so this LRT will have very little (I suggest very close to zero) impact on the commutes of people living in Brampton and working somewhere in Mississauga. While more mississauga residents will live closer to the LRT their commutes to Brampton will be similarly lowly impacted unless they work at the Courthouse, Peel Regional Police or Brampton City Hall.

Again it it "ALL about ME" and I don't care about others that is coming out clear to me or NIMBY thinking related to this LRT by a few people here.

I am going to take that as directed at me. I don't see my viewpoint as "all about me" at all. I think I am espousing a position which I honestly feel is best for a) Brampton and b) the regional spending priorities. We are moving into a new phase/reality.....one where, once the revenue tools are in place, we are all spending each others money...and mis-spending (as I believe this LRT to be) in one area affects the ability to spend in other areas. Gone are the days when we might have said "who cares if extending the subway into Vaughan is not the best thing...it is York Regions money and if they want it they should have it".....we are in the area where gas taxes/tolls/parking levies/whatever in Pickering are going to contribute to a $1.6B LRT which, by all admission, runs through some pretty low density areas and, at least for the Brampton portion, is gonna be an expensive pain to build and generate very little ridership....all so that we can say we are spreading the BigMove2 monies around?

I refer to all day GO to Brampton a lot (I get that) but that is just because that is where I live.....all day GO service on the KW line serves more than just Brampton.....it serves Etobicoke North, Malton, Weston and with a bit of creativity/imagination stations at Eglinton/Black Creek and Liberty Village you have a line that can be a real regional spine....it is not a NIMBY attitude to suggest that this line getting full service should have a much higher priority than the LRT we are discussing.

I will be calling for the city to go alone in getting this line built starting in 2016 if Metrolinx is not prepared to fund this line by then or before 2020, as we cannot wait for Metrolinx anymore. This will require the city to go to the Bond market as well doing a full P3 plan. Talking is over and time for doing it. The line cannot get built until 2016 due to trunk-line work on Hurontario to start next year that will have a major impact on traffic and transit for a few years. Could start building some sections before then, but the yard would be a good starting point.

By going alone, I presume this will mean the region going alone...and that is when my opposition develops into more than just posting here and enjoying the intellectual discourse that goes with being annoying. It is bad enough, to me, that on a regional basis we are frivolously prioritizing this project that, as I stated, has very little value to the city I live in....but if I am asked to take on bond debt to build locally/regionally my opposition will become much more vocal and serious.

 

[Evening]

TOareaFan, I live no where close to the LRT, and all day GO train service would be great for my commute to school, and Brampton should be making a fuss and trying to get that service, but if it decides to do that by getting difficult on the LRT it would only stall what can be a very good project for the region.

I know you said that you think the current mix of express buses is good enough for Hurontario but when I look at that, all I see is a big mess. Each route goes its own way, they are all branded differently, have different comfort levels, and service. It would be great for people who use that corridor to have one, reliable, comfortable, stable and attractive service for them to rely on. I think its just hard to deny LRT would be good for the region, maybe not as good for Brampton as all day GO service but do we really want to be people who stalled this project even further because we were upset what we wanted wasnt happening sooner. Isnt that what those people in the Weston area are doing to the Air Rail Link? Isnt that what people in Thronhill are doing about the viva BRT? Do you really want to be like them?

 

[CapCurk]

Was at the second open house for the LRT at MCC. I was surprised that their preferred route through the city centre includes going down Duke of York and not Living Arts drive. Seems to me having it closer to all the new and current development will get more people on the LRT. It will be silly to get rid of the roundabouts on Duke of York, they seem to be working. They also need to highlight that you will need to take 2 trains if you want to go from south Sauga to Brampton, transferring at the Square One stop and vise-versa.

 

[Evening]

Was at the second open house for the LRT at MCC. I was surprised that their preferred route through the city centre includes going down Duke of York and not Living Arts drive. Seems to me having it closer to all the new and current development will get more people on the LRT. It will be silly to get rid of the roundabouts on Duke of York, they seem to be working. They also need to highlight that you will need to take 2 trains if you want to go from south Sauga to Brampton, transferring at the Square One stop and vise-versa.

Why on earth are they forcing a transfer when the point of the LRT was to have a continuous connection from Port Credit to Downtown Brampton?

 

[TOareaFan]

Why on earth are they forcing a transfer when the point of the LRT was to have a continuous connection from Port Credit to Downtown Brampton?

likely so they can have different frequencies south of MCC than north of MCC and better meet the goal: "“Our priority is from the lake to the city core because that is where the congestion is"

 

[jeicow]

They also need to highlight that you will need to take 2 trains if you want to go from south Sauga to Brampton, transferring at the Square One stop and vise-versa.

From talking to one of the planners, it seems that the two-loop proposal isn't likely going to survive and something they're introducing based on staff/political suggestions. That scenario was one of questions asked in the feedback package. A few things I found interesting were:

• Continuous bike lane from north of the QEW to the 403 (they're unsure of what that interchange will look like). From the 403 north to the 407 the lane continues, then a multi-use trail over the 407. I didn't look into detail of north of that
• New second tunnel for northbound traffic under the QEW (after rebuilding the interchange a few years back)
• Segregated ROW south of QEW, while maintaining two-lanes each direction. Numerous changes into accesses (closure, realignments, one-way road changes, etc.)
• Port Credit and Credit Reserve residents were mad as hell and will be putting up a fight. \
• New tunnel under the Lakeshore West/CN rail line

 

[drum118]

Route 20 is going to see a makeover in September and something I have being calling for years.

Once the new bus terminal at Erindale Station is rebuilt, 2o will continue west on Rathburn to it, using the current westbound stop for 109. It will continue to use the current eastbound stop.

There is still talk 26 could be pull from the terminal and stay 100% on Burnhamthorpe.

As for 10 not servicing CCTT once the LRT is built, it could do what I have wanted to to for years or another route is to go east to Dixie and service the sports complexes that are hard to get to these days.

7 would be scrap and replace by 34 that would not go to CCTT at all and stop at Renforth.

91 is a dead route and needs a total makeover.

Other than at peak time, 6 should not run west of Erindale Station Rd and tie in with 26.

There is talk that 9 would terminate at Winston Churchill BRT stop and have issue with that one.

There are 5 LRT stops that need to be relocated a block from where they are plan for, as they don't connect with current bus routes and stops that currently have higher ridership than the ones plan.

Disagree on the loop 100% regardless where you put it as it will do nothing for the core as well add to riders travel time like today.

The most disturbing news that there would be no through line and you would have to change trains at CCTT to go north or south just like you do with 502 and 19. This "REAL DUMB THINKING TO DO" and why build the line then.

Depending on what happens on May 27, no election before 2015, funding approved by year end for the LRT for 2014 budget, we maybe riding the first phase of it by 2020.

Other than at peak time, 6 should not run west of Erindale Station Rd and tie in with 26.

There is talk that 9 would terminate at Winston Churchill BRT stop and have issue with that one.

There are 5 LRT stops that need to be relocated a block from where they are plan for, as they don't connect with current bus routes and stops that currently have higher ridership than the ones plan.

Disagree on the loop 100% regardless where you put it as it will do nothing for the core as well add to riders travel time like today.

The most disturbing news that there would be no through line and you would have to change trains at CCTT to go north or south just like you do with 502 and 19. This "REAL DUMB THINKING TO DO" and why build the line then.

 

[Platform 27]

I don't see my viewpoint as "all about me" at all. I think I am espousing a position which I honestly feel is best for a) Brampton and b) the regional spending priorities. We are moving into a new phase/reality.....one where, once the revenue tools are in place, we are all spending each others money...and mis-spending (as I believe this LRT to be) in one area affects the ability to spend in other areas. Gone are the days when we might have said "who cares if extending the subway into Vaughan is not the best thing...it is York Regions money and if they want it they should have it".....we are in the area where gas taxes/tolls/parking levies/whatever in Pickering are going to contribute to a $1.6B LRT which, by all admission, runs through some pretty low density areas and, at least for the Brampton portion, is gonna be an expensive pain to build and generate very little ridership....all so that we can say we are spreading the BigMove2 monies around?

I refer to all day GO to Brampton a lot (I get that) but that is just because that is where I live.....all day GO service on the KW line serves more than just Brampton.....it serves Etobicoke North, Malton, Weston and with a bit of creativity/imagination stations at Eglinton/Black Creek and Liberty Village you have a line that can be a real regional spine....it is not a NIMBY attitude to suggest that this line getting full service should have a much higher priority than the LRT we are discussing.

Except those same tolls in Pickering would also be going to pay for all day GO service to Brampton. Which by then would include a station at Eglinton.

 

[TOareaFan]

Except those same tolls in Pickering would also be going to pay for all day GO service to Brampton. Which by then would include a station at Eglinton.

Aside from the fact you missed my basic point in that comment about being careful what we plan/prioritize as we are now using each other's money.....ask Metrolinx a) when there will be all day service - and the answer is we don't know/have no specific plans/sometime in the future...so in this discussion where I am critical of the prioritizing (from my community's perspective) that is hardly different from what I have been saying here.... and b) of the $4.9B of cost you have "budgeted" to deliver all day GO on the non-Lakeshore lines, what is the breakdown? specifically, how much more has to be spent on the KW line considering how much is already spent - the answer is (and I will quote them this time) "I have looked into your question, and have learned that we do not have additional information at this time as we are still doing further work to determine the costs associated with each part of the network."....so you hardly gain faith in their budgeting/estimating when they state the total cost of all day GO as $4.9B but can't tell you how that is made up.....it really is just a thumb in the air!

Taken to the extreme.....if the Big Move is a sum of all the individual project costs....and the individual project costs are just a thumb in the air....how much credence can we put in the $50B total? Then, since the funding tools are projected/aimed at that $50B target over 25 years....what confidence do we have in those?

The real reason that prioritizing is so important (and no one wants to say/hear this) is there is very close to Zero chance that the entire Big Move (whether you agree with it all or not) actually gets built/implemented. Its very foundation is a 25 year plan ....so about 6 - 7 provincial governments.....based on the ability to continually raise $2B a year from new taxes. What is the over under on a new government getting elected with a key part of its platform being "we are going to kill that $2B a year tax grab that those guys {whoever those guys are} slapped on you!".

There is, maybe, a 3 - 5 year window here and what we do with the first $6B - $10B raised is crucially important. Aside from all day GO on the KW being my "pet" preference....it is also something tangible that can be delivered reasonably quickly and reasonably cheaply and can be held up and shown as a real success "brought to you by Metrolinx and their new funding tools".....but, now, we really are straying pretty far from Mississauga's LRT...I apologize....but to bring it back closer to subject matter......what is highly likely is that Bramptonians will be directed to Port Credit for their all day GO trains and told it is only a Zum/BT trip to Nelson to get on the LRT to go to Square 1 and then to get on the other part of the LRT to get to PC....and that someday when further funding is available....we will consider all day GO trains for Brampton OR you can take a Zum to the subway in Vaughan OR you can do what you always did and take a bus.

 

[ShonTron]

The Hurontario LRT is a game changer for Mississauga and Brampton. I would hate to see numbskulls in Brampton try to sink it in favour of other projects that may or may not ever happen - especially dubious demands for LRT on Queen Street that won't connect anywhere.

The City is rezoning much of the developable land along Main/Hurontario, which preserving the downtown Main Street heritage district and the Etobicoke Creek floodlands. Shoppers World, Brampton Mall and City South Plaza are all due for intensification, with official staff support.

Went to go see the LRV mock-up and the open house earlier this evening downtown Brampton.

 

[drum118]

I see I miss something at Tuesday PIC and saw it in Brampton.

The tracks north of the QEW to north of Steeles will run in the #1 lane in both direction with the current turning lane being used for trees, shrubs and flower beds that exist today there as well future ones. This mean the emergency vehicles will only use the ROW where there is nothing between the tracks. Grass could be place in the ROW along with special stone works.

I support closing off that one block by the theater in Brampton, but strong opposition to it, as will having on Hurontario. The building by the current driveway to the GO parking lot will be remove and replace by a park until the line goes north a some future date.

I hear someone is looking at building something next to the Cooksville parking lot where the cars dealership is located, but not will to say too much what they think of putting there at this time. Plus 1 for LRT development.

I was going through some data recover files from a number of drive failures and I thought I would share some data I did back in 2010 on Hurontario.

I used Dundas as the peak point of northbound ridership since I did a number of days headcount at this location as well being the main peak point.

I used 1% to 10% yearly increase of ridership from 2010 to 2031 as follow with the current ridership at 725 in 2010. This is per hour at peak time.

1% yearly would see 902 in 2031

3% would be 1,389

5% would be 2,121

7% would be 3,212

10% would be 5,902.

19 carry about 26,000 on its route in 2010 when it ran to shoppers' World and this is what the ridership would look like by 2031.

1% would see 32,362 (Today figure)

3% would see 49,819

5% would see 76,057

7% would see 115,190

10% would see 211,647

Using a peak ridership per bus of 50 for 40' bus, these are the number of buses as well headway.

Based on 2010 numbers, you need 15 buses every 4 minutes.

1% increase would require 18.04 buses every 3.33 minutes

3% would require 27.78 buses every 2.14 minutes

5% would require 42.42 buses every 1.43 minutes

7% would require 64.24 buses every .94 minutes

10% would require 118.04 buses every .51 minutes

Using 60' articulated buses with 75 riders you will require 9.67 or 10 buses every 6 minutes for 2010.

1% would require 12.03 or 12 buses every 4.99 minute.

3% would require 18.52 or 19 buses every 3.24 minute

5% would require 22.91 or 23 buses every 2.12 minute

7% would require 42.83 or 43 buses every 1.4 minute

10% would require 78.69 or 79 buses every .76 minute

Using a single LRV carrying 125 riders in 2010, you would need 5.8 or 6 cars every 10 minutes.

By 2031 using 1%, you would require 7.22 or 7 cars every 8.31

3% would require 11.11 or 11 cars every 5.4 minute

5% would require 16.97 or 17 cars every 3.54 minutes

7% would require 25.7 or 26 cars every 2.33 minutes

10% would require 47,21 or 47 cars every 1.27 minutes

If we ran 2 car trains in 2010 we need 2.9 or 3 sets every 20 minutes and not going to happen based on the headway.

1% would require 3.61 or 4 sets every 15 minutes and not going to happen based on headway.

3% would require 5.56 or 6 sets every 10 minutes and not going to happen due to headway.

5% would require 8.48 or 8 sets every 7 minute

7% would require 12.85 or 13 sets every 4.67 minute

10% would require 23.61 or 24 sets every 2.54 minute

Since we will not see service until 2020/21 at the earliest since this a 4 year construction project with 2016 at the start time, a lot more buses will have to thrown at 19 and 502 until the line comes on either as a whole route or in phases.

With the trunk line work starting on 19 next year until 2016, more buses will have to be put out there to maintain some sort of headway, otherwise huge gaps and convey will be the name of the game like it was back in 2000. Headway became 11-13 minutes up from 6 minutes south of Sq One and 18 north of Sq One with all the buses being artic, not the normal 40's.

I can see the bean counters looking at 6 minutes headway for peak and 10 minutes off peak with all the extra space on the LRV's. The wrong way to go if you want to get people out of their cars and higher use of transit. 3 minutes for peak, 5 for off peak, 10 after 9 pm and 30 after 1 am until start of day service since this will be a 7/24 route in the first place.

 

[TOareaFan]

I support closing off that one block by the theater in Brampton, but strong opposition to it, as will having on Hurontario. The building by the current driveway to the GO parking lot will be remove and replace by a park until the line goes north a some future date.

Closing Main between Queen and Neslon?

Which building by the GO? The privately owned retail strip? or the apartment building?

 

[TOareaFan]

The Hurontario LRT is a game changer for Mississauga and Brampton. I would hate to see numbskulls in Brampton try to sink it in favour of other projects that may or may not ever happen - especially dubious demands for LRT on Queen Street that won't connect anywhere.

While I do not see this LRT changing any games in Brampton, I certainly don't support the notion of LRT on Queen Street...and I know that there are some that think this LRT should get diverted through parkland to end up at the PMH site...which makes no sense to me. Not sure if that makes me a numbskull or not but I think I can be opposed to this LRT without supporting one on Queen.

The City is rezoning much of the developable land along Main/Hurontario, which preserving the downtown Main Street heritage district and the Etobicoke Creek floodlands. Shoppers World, Brampton Mall and City South Plaza are all due for intensification, with official staff support.

How much developable land is there between Nelson and the Mississauga border? Honest question....I just don't see this line bringing much development (to Brampton).