[tkip]

I was listening to Jim Richard's replacement today on the radio.

A guy who is from Toronto and has lived away from the city for a number of years and recently he returned and said he was appalled at the deterioration of the city.

Especially the condition of the streets and the litter everywhere. He also told a story about a conversation he overheard in Dallas between 2 women who, one had just recently returned from a business trip who talked about our dirty streets, litter everywhere, the homeless and the unfriendly citizens.

I've been saying for a number of years that Toronto is going down the drain dispite the colossal building boom. We've let our city fall apart, we throw garbage everywhere, people are extremely rude and obnoxious. Personally I've become embarassed at what has happend to this city.

There's little to no civic pride and people generally seem to just not care. So my question is this: how badly has Toronto declined in your opinion and I want to hear from those who have travelled and lived abroad and would like to hear their feedback.

 

[paraone]

I think you need to go back to the early 80's toronto was a dusty, dreary place with a street scape that resembled Newark in alot of places. Sure Toronto has more "big city" issues, but thats because we are a MUCH bigger city now. It's still one of the cleanest in north america with some of the most friendly people out there. People just like to bitch, if Dallas is so great maybe he should go live there for a bit.... what a sh*t hole that place is.

 

[insertrealname]

I've lived in Toronto only since 1985, but I can tell you the city--at least the downtown core--was a much cleaner place in the mid-80's, at least in terms of pieces of trash larger than a cigarette butt.

Partly this is a result of a general increase in people's littering behaviour: back then, it was unusual in the downtown to see someone casually drop part of a newspaper, a candy bar wrapper, a paper cup, or some other fairly obvious piece of trash onto the street, today it's something people think nothing of doing. (I blame part of this behavioural change on the decline in cleaning standards in the TTC bus and subway stations: back then, the uptight TTC seemed to maintain its facilities so that they gave the aesthetic impression--I'm only slightly joking--of a well cleaned public washroom, tiles and all. This had a daily conditioning effect on commuters, I'm certain.)

It seems to me that there were significantly more city employees with broom and bag going around manually cleaning the streets--the most effective method--back then as well.

By the mid-90's, there had been a shift to far less frequent manual labour and more mechanical street cleaning, but my impression from the time is that the overall frequency of street cleaning had declined as well. There was a steady deterioration in public areas in downtown Toronto throughout the 90's, until in the mid-2000s the decline seemed to level out. At least, my feeling is that while the city looks crappier now than in the 80's, the wholesale rot of the 90's and early 2000's has been at least arrested.

But of course, there is the wider picture of how public space has evolved in Toronto in that period as well: there seems to be much more value put on "privatized" development and uses (e.g. Yonge/Dundas square), while the truly public spaces (parks, green spaces, etc.) are physically neglected or increasingly dependent on private initiatives (e.g. citizen-led or occasionally private corporation sec. 37 public space developments). This evolution has had its echo in how things like rules about publicity and postering are handled in public space, which are largely unenforced for corporate interests, except when citizens make an effort to ensure enforcement.

 

[urbandreamer]

Yep, Toronto's in decline. The evidence: Everytime I walk down Eglinton/St Clair/Bloor/College/Dundas/Queen/King etc I see another yuppie cafe/store/bar/whatever open. I tell you, Toronto's so depressing--it's going down the drain.

 

[grey]

tkip, I've seen you post the exact same sentiment over and over and each time I weigh it with my experiences and come to the conclusion that the Toronto you've been living in is not the Toronto that I'm living in. By any real measure (economic output, cultural institutions, safety), the city is leagues ahead of itself in the '80s and '90s.

Aside from too-cool-for-school complaints as in the post above:

- Yes, garbage pickup and street cleaning could be better. The new garbage containers are NOT helping the situation in some neighbourhoods. I'll also suggest that the majority of littering assholes do not live in Toronto, but are actually visiting from the 905 area.
- There is a growing divide between high wage earners and low wage earners. Immigrants need to be structurally integrated more effectively, but that's a problem on a national scale and not unique to Toronto. What is really a problem for Toronto is growing poverty in the outer suburbs, and that has a lot to do with transit service.
- I have not experienced an increase in rude or obnoxious people. I have met bigger snobs on the east coast, believe it or not. I suspect maybe it's a change in your perception of youth / society in general.
- There are so many downtown neighbourhoods that were genuinely spooky places to be just fifteen years ago (King West, Parkdale, Leslieville, the Junction, ... I can't name them all, but there are dozens). Even Rexdale has improved enormously compared to 10 or 20 years ago.

 

[UrbanFervour]

Two random women in Dallas prompted this? Who cares what they think about Toronto? They live in DALLAS.

 

[savevp]

I don't think that anybody should be complaining. Sure, we have more litter, and I for one wholehartedly bemoan that. (I have actually told people to pick up their litter before) but I absolutely disagree that our city is in decline.

I have to agree with the above post by Paraone, Toronto is a HECK of alot nicer than before. Look at the Harbourfront for a prime example. Look around the CN Tower for another example. And finally, look around the Air Canada Centre. It is a postcard view of our city of the '90s and the 2000's.

Here is a picture for those who don't know what I mean.

And today,
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/4011489815_8a59aeb54e.jpg

 

[Parkdalian]

Any argument that says "X is in decline" is usually meaningless. tkip, what you have determined as decline - which essentially sounds like an increase in litter - can be seen as a side effect of the city being larger than it previously was.

I can look at any city, find things declining in it relative to its previous state, use those things as the only ways to judge the city and therefore conclude it is on the decline. It means nothing, really. It's just a projection of prejudices.

If you want to skip the inflated terms like "X is in decline" and stick to measurable specifics like "roads are worse than they used to be" or "congestion is worse", than you might have an argument. But only about those specifics. The city is not just litter, nor is it just gossip from two people from Dallas.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Toronto isn't declining, but it is entering a period of diminishing marginal returns. Consider this simplified history of the development of Greater Toronto relative to the region's 30-year population doubling cycle:


Years: 1920 - 1950

Population growth: 750,000 -> 1.5 million

Development characterized by: formation of large-scale civic institutions and physical infrastructure able to transform city from a medium-sized provincial city to a national metropolis; visionaries like R.C. Harris, consolidation of transit operations into a municipal public service (TTC), construction of subway starter line.

Where most population growth occurs: City of Toronto

Is a form of governance established to deal with where the majority of population growth occurs? Yes (mostly within city, therefore administered by city government).

Did Toronto feel like "twice the city" in 1950 compared to 1920? Yes.

Years: 1950 - 1980

Population growth: 1.5 million -> 3 million

Development characterized by: radical transformation of social, institutional and physical landscape. Massive immigration completely transforms the cultural makeup of Torontonians; large-scale downtown urban renewal; large feats of engineering: (~60 km of subway, majority of 400 series highway system, GO transit). Metropolitan government; creation of large-scale institutions to support metropolitan social and economic development.

Where most population growth occurs: Townships that form Metropolitan Toronto

Is a form of governance established to deal with where the majority of population growth occurs? Yes (Metro).

Did Toronto feel like "twice the city" in 1980 compared to 1950? Absolutely.

Years: 1980 - 2010

Population growth: 3 million -> 6 million

Development characterized by: marginal improvements to existing 1950-1980 infrastructure system; continued immigration patterns (although from different countries), marginal enhancements to supporting institutions.

Where most population growth occurs: Outer suburbs (905).

Is a form of governance established to deal with where the majority of population growth occurs? No.

Does Toronto feel like "twice the city" in 2010 compared to 1980? Probably not.

---

So, while it would be hard to say that we're declining, I think it would be safe to say that the most exciting days are probably behind us. I don't think we are heading into another exciting period of civic building on the scale we witnessed during the 1950 - 1980 stretch; I also think that we won't be doubling to 12 million by 2040 and, if we do with our current mentality of governance and infrastructure provision, god help us all.

 

[grey]

I am growing more offended by the minute. This is absolute incendiary bullshit. What the hell kind of good does this cynical bitching do for anyone? Go volunteer in a soup kitchen and get the hell out of my sight.

 

[kettal]

There's been more litter since the new garbage bins which are perpetually full. Doesn't help that even those have been removed in the past few weeks.

 

[Glen]

Let's see, create an environment that depreciates commercial land values, offer development fees that do not cover capital costs of development and then off tax rates that do not cover ongoing marginal operating costs. Mix them together and what do you get, a condo boom.

The economy and by extension Toronto's fiscal health, is what has paid the price for this 'success'.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's pointless to talk about "the city" as if the same thing is happening everywhere. Some parts of the city did not yet exist in 1980. Some neighbourhoods have dramatically less litter than they did in the 80s/90s, probably because the demographics changed...at the same time, though, these areas may have seen their landscaping/streetcleaning budgets almost entirely diverted to more central areas in the name of a Clean/Beautiful City (and you can certainly argue that the dollars are better spent in a few focused areas). Some downtown areas have far more people living and working and shopping and going to school in them today than in the 80s...combine this with our incredibly stupid street furniture that has turned the simple garbage can from an obvious and visible wastebasket to some newfangled advertising gizmo that is invariably full or broken and from some angles unrecognizable as a garbage can and some increase in litter is probably unavoidable. The removal of TTC garbage cans in the name of 'security' didn't help, though clear bags have been put back.

As a society, I'm convinced we're a lot less concerned with our/the environment today than we were a few decades ago, when acid rain, overpopulation, animal extinctions, nuclear winter, etc., combined with a rigorous public education campaign to get us to litter less and recycle more and make changes to our behaviour (to name a few things related to litter on the streets). Today, I'm sure there's lots of people who litter without thought and then feel good about their decision to minimize their carbon footprint by buying 'green.' They bought a Starbucks coffee in a cup made with recycled bamboo chopsticks, so they still come out even by littering, or whatever. Growing up, I was taught at home, in school, and by the media/government to feel guilty about tossing a can on the ground because it kills pandas, so I'll drag a can around for an hour and not litter. I don't think older people or younger people think quite this way, and even the recent Al Gore-inspired eco-frenzy was more politics than anything else. Maybe there's some 'suburban anger' creeping into the city whereby people are more willing to litter because they think their taxes should be picking up after them (leading to a spiral in which the presence of litter means their taxes are being wasted, therefore taxes need to be lowered...). Litter leads to more litter, though, and I bet people are less likely to litter if they notice how sparkling the streets are, so we do need to keep on top of it to a degree.

This is just litter, though, and decline is about so much more than litter.

 

[Archivist]

Yes, I think we've had this discussion before. Just getting back from a trip that took me through Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester, it was interesting to see cities in real decline and what that looks like. Answer: stagnating population, cores full of fantastic but empty and abandoned buildings that have no use now, buildings falling down and boarded up in the central city, many closed shops and even huge departments stores empty and boarded, entire residential neighbourhoods completely abandoned, filthy streets and lots of beggars, much evidence of poor or nonexistant planning. I read an article in the Liverpool paper while I was there that outlined the report of a foundation on the UK's cities - advice to Liverpool which came in near the bottom in their city ranking by economic indicators - try and get smaller in an orderly fashion if you possibly can. Don't even think about trying to recover.

Though the cities were flecked through with some intelligent and useful attempts at rehabilitation.

They were interesting but returning to Toronto is a revelation after that voyage. Decline? I guess it's all relative. We're not at our peak of planning, to be certain, and the growth we have is placing a strain on a transit system that's suffered from 30 years of dithering. We have issues, for certain, but not decline.

 

[Junction416]

I would find it hard pressed to say that Toronto is in decline. Downtowns population has grown by 65 percent since the 1970s, nearly 10 percent, or 70,000 people this decade alone. The city has seen 300,000,000 invested in cultural institutions, we have seen the city mature into a significant financial centre, consistently places high in quality of life rankings and has built up huge parts of the waterfront. While challenges remain they are not unique to Toronto and are shared by every single big city on the continent.

If anything the only failure has been an inability to keep up with the cities growth due to the systemic constraints that force us to govern and pay for a 21st century city using 19th century tools. Toronto is a boom town not one in decline and has emerged as one of the best cities in North America.