Xray_Crystal_Junkie
Senior Member
"face-time" with your loved ones awaiting your return home, where later you will all curl up together on the pull out sofa for a comfortable sleep.
- Thread starter AlbertC
- Start date
"face-time" with your loved ones awaiting your return home, where later you will all curl up together on the pull out sofa for a comfortable sleep.
Hanlansboy
Active Member
Are they joking? 740 sq feet and three BR's?? They do realize we have to fit a bed in the rooms? Absurd!
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
Agree. IMO, it's a developers pie in the face to the Planners & Councillors (namely McConnell & Vaughan) who look toward the future of downtown and work hard to negotiate a reasonable number of family sized units in these new buildings. Not having more livable sized 3 and 4 bedroom condos is really going to be a problem for downtown Toronto in the future.
syn
Senior Member
This thing looks kind of hideous. Hopefully the final product is a nice surprise.
Ramako
Moderator
I agree that there should be more family-sized units downtown, but are we really expecting families to live right in the heart of the CBD, at Temperance and Sheppard? It's a tower for young, single professionals who want to be close to the office, and it's being marketed as such. Those types don't need three bedrooms.
Thanos
Active Member
750sq.ft 3 bd units are normal in many parts of the developed world.
Exactly
The financial district doesn't need any 3-4 bedroom units.
Hanlansboy
Active Member
You're correct, they don't need 3 BR suites in the financial core, not many want to raise a family in the heart of downtown, however, if you're going to build them, make them of adequate size. It was mentioned that 740 sq feet three BR's are not uncommon in other parts of the world. While that may be so, it shouldn't mean we have to accept living in a cubby hole.
Lenser
Senior Member
Considering market pressures in this city, my bet is that 740 sq. feet for a 3 bedroom condo in downtown TO will, soon enough, become the new normal.
Mike in TO
Senior Member
The problem is twofold - despite the city pushing for three bedroom units, they are often the last to sell - the market is rather limited for that product (that isn't to suggest there may not be a market in the future, but the fact is they don't sell well today).
The criticism that the three bedroom units are too small is valid - but there are affordability factors at play - with $psf approaching $700 on average downtown, the unit sizes are shrinking to pull the end selling price down to affordable levels - if you wanted a more reasonably sized 1,000 sqf three bedroom unit you are looking at a base price of $700,000 - toss in a parking spot and a few upgrades and you are easily in the $750,000 - $800,000 range - for a family there are plenty of ground oriented housing stock options with a small backyard within close range of the downtown core in that price range. I'm not suggesting that there are no families that would want to purchase that $750,000 condo, but realistically given the choice in that price range most families that could afford a $750,000 home downtown are going to look for a ground oriented option in the communities immediately surrounding the downtown core.
The criticism that the three bedroom units are too small is valid - but there are affordability factors at play - with $psf approaching $700 on average downtown, the unit sizes are shrinking to pull the end selling price down to affordable levels - if you wanted a more reasonably sized 1,000 sqf three bedroom unit you are looking at a base price of $700,000 - toss in a parking spot and a few upgrades and you are easily in the $750,000 - $800,000 range - for a family there are plenty of ground oriented housing stock options with a small backyard within close range of the downtown core in that price range. I'm not suggesting that there are no families that would want to purchase that $750,000 condo, but realistically given the choice in that price range most families that could afford a $750,000 home downtown are going to look for a ground oriented option in the communities immediately surrounding the downtown core.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Thanks for that post Mike, I surely agree.
The problem is compounded when you realize that Toronto is actually quite conservative when it comes to 'alternative' housing typologies. There is: low rise detached, low rise attached, mid rise attached, high rise attached and...and...
If we relaxed our primitive and outdated zoning by-law to accommodate things like secondary suites and, above all, laneway housing, we could fit an extra 10-15% population within the pre-amalgamation City of Toronto (Stinson and Van Elslander). What's more, because the units would be sold or rented purely to end-users, we could avoid investors and speculators (not that they don't have their own place in this market) and not inflate this bubble any more than it is.
The problem is compounded when you realize that Toronto is actually quite conservative when it comes to 'alternative' housing typologies. There is: low rise detached, low rise attached, mid rise attached, high rise attached and...and...
If we relaxed our primitive and outdated zoning by-law to accommodate things like secondary suites and, above all, laneway housing, we could fit an extra 10-15% population within the pre-amalgamation City of Toronto (Stinson and Van Elslander). What's more, because the units would be sold or rented purely to end-users, we could avoid investors and speculators (not that they don't have their own place in this market) and not inflate this bubble any more than it is.
Ric
Active Member
I'm glad someone finally explained: I was too lazy to. Gr8 post Mike.
000
Senior UT Member
Why do resale units in older buildings in this area cost almost half as much psf? 71 Simcoe, 25 The Esplanade, 30 Wellington E, 33 University, 7 King St E are almost always < $450 psf, slowly climbing, but still... that's quite a gap to fill. On the higher end of recent buildings $/psf at the Ritz are adjusting down, $882 in 2011 to $758 today.
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Mike in TO
Senior Member
A variety of reasons, but primarily escalating labour and material costs on the construction side (advancing at a far quicker pace then CPI) and land costs have spiked significantly in the last two or three years. Smaller more complicated sites are more common now than in projects built in years past and underground construction costs, especially on smaller sites are a huge cost barrier. HST also applies only to new vs resale and since the tax was introduced in 2010 it is essentially tax neutral to the PST regime for product under $400k, but there are net new taxes for the incremental value over $400k which certainly has a more significant impact on larger units.
neuhaus
Senior Member
Pre-construction prices are based on future values as you are only putting a fraction down and paying the balance for the end product in 3 to 5+ years, which is why it is so attractive to investors looking for a place to sink their money into. This wasn't really the case 10 years ago as there were less investors, and end users were hesitant in waiting that long and buying off plans on paper.
The units in these new condos are also much smaller than in older condos which is the reasons why they cost more per sq.ft.
There is also the lure of a new sleek modern building with cool amenities, slick interiors, living high in the sky, etc. The marketing people behind these developments know how to hype sales, and prices.
RC8
Senior Member
Plus the quality of life afforded by living in one of these buildings in our climate is incredible. While many are not what I'd describe as family friendly (unfortunately) it would be hard for me to adjust to life without my current condo's amenities. I essentially have a community centre a short elevator ride from my apartment.