[Eug]

^^^Yes really, I doubt you have any experience with the US system so I put you in the group that likes to take anecdotal evidence as truth. Again I have intimate and extensive experience, not only working in both systems but using both systems. Until you have you probably shouldn't comment on it.

You may not have seen this, because I updated my post as you were posting yours. This is my update above:

---

Well, I know several physicians who have worked in the US, and they would beg to differ. Now if you're talking about those patients with money to spare on health care (not medicaid), some would argue they can get better care in the US than in Canada, but that's not overall.

BTW, several physicians have told me that for some of their colleagues, they won't even see a patient if they have Medicaid coverage. One guy I know started to see his income dwindle significantly because he didn't turn away medicaid patients in his middle-class practice. His colleagues refused to see medicaid patients so they started going to him, and he began to get an unusually large number of medicaid patients in his practice. Unfortunately, medicaid often pays a lot less than other insurance plans or less than what he'd charge patients directly. This was in New York State.

---

The problem here is that while Medicaid can work in certain jurisdictions, the convoluted structure of the overall systems means it can fail horribly in others. Just the one Michigan fee schedule graph alone from my subsequent post goes a long way to illustrate this point.

 

[gabe]

America health Insurance companies are fighting over themselves to get your business. They all offer the best service “since sliced bread”, and promise to be there for you when you need them. As we know, that isn’t always the case. Often people are denied on technicalities ranging from denial of treatment due to any number of reasons ranging from experimental, to cosmetic. Often patients are denied the proper insurance to cover many of their ailments because the HMO’s don’t want to make a payout unless they absolutely have no other choice. This is a daily fact of life for many people with health insurance living in America.

 

[Register123]

And for every article you find (anecdotal btw). I can find an equal if not worse case in Canada, ie. the number of Canadians that can't find a primary care physician but must go to ER's or walk-in clinics for doctor's visits, MRI & CT, wait times being measured in months (Canadians just in the past year have just started being able to get a PET scan in some special cases while the rest of the world, including developing nations have had this imaging technology available for nearly a decade) , surgery and cardiac cath procedures putting patients at risk of death due to lengthly wait times, no drug coverage, wait times measured in years to see specialists, etc, etc. Don't even get me started you have no idea unless like I have said before you have been a user of both systems and worked in both systems.

 

[adma]

funnily enough, I have never seen a person being called "troll" for being left winged so far on this forum.
I guess it is a strategy exclusive to the left wing to call those with different opinions "trolls" rather than making direct arguments against whatever they don't agree with? I don't know how to argue you, here is an idea, how about I call you a "troll" and voila, I win the battle!

Once again, if you're prone to statements like "Doesn't matter. Whoever set the fire should be awarded some sort of prize.", you're beneath even the label of "troll". At that point, anyone with "differing opinions", however heinous, can excuse themselves off on "different opinion" grounds...

 

[Eug]

And for every article you find (anecdotal btw). I can find an equal if not worse case in Canada, ie. the number of Canadians that can't find a primary care physician but must go to ER's or walk-in clinics for doctor's visits, MRI & CT, wait times being measured in months (Canadians just in the past year have just started being able to get a PET scan in some special cases while the rest of the world, including developing nations have had this imaging technology available for nearly a decade) , surgery and cardiac cath procedures putting patients at risk of death due to lengthly wait times, no drug coverage, wait times measured in years to see specialists, etc, etc. Don't even get me started you have no idea unless like I have said before you have been a user of both systems and worked in both systems.

Sorry, with that post it sounds like you're the one talking anecdotes. I'm talking overall outcome.

Yes, there are some serious problems in Canadian healthcare. It would be foolish not to acknowledge that. However, when one actually looks at end outcome measures the Canadian system actually does better overall in general.

As for PET scans it might be interesting for you to actually look into that more closely. Yes, PET can be a very useful tool say in cancer management, but ultimately it's of secondary importance. PET availability can be one measure of a system, but the more useful measure here is stuff like cancer mortality rates which are extremely similar in Canada and the US.

OTOH, with other outcome measures, the US fails miserably. For example, infant mortality is extremely high in the US compared to Canada, despite the overall much higher per capita spending on healthcare in the US.

 

[Register123]

I work in PET scanning for the past 10 years so I can tell you it is not secondary in the treatment and management of cancer, perhaps you need to look into it more closely. As for outcomes there are some conditions Canadians fair better at but there are a larger number that they don't.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

^^^Yes really, I doubt you have any experience with the US system so I put you in the group that likes to take anecdotal evidence as truth. Again I have intimate and extensive experience, not only working in both systems but using both systems. Until you have you probably shouldn't comment on it.

[clears throat] OK, since you're not kkgg7 (aka 'the masterdickcheese'), I will take four seconds to clarify a couple of things for you:

1. On an ANONYMOUS Internet forum, stating that you have 'intimate and extensive experience' of ANYTHING, without concrete examples, is the equivalent of pissing into the Amazon. I don't believe you have intimate and extensive experience of anything, except possibly your right hand having intimate and extensive experience of other 'more intimate' parts of your anatomy.

2. You need to pick your targets. Whether you agree with their point of view or not, Eug (and ADMA, Admiral Beez, etc., etc., etc.) have established a level of trust as posters. They are not irresponsible. You, on the other hand, moved into RICHARD territory with your last post.

3. Here's an 'extensive experience' anecdote for you: I spent two years in Washingon at a school with a prestigious medical school. They checked -- not treated -- a partially torn MCL that had been diagnosed in Calgary. They felt the need to give me a new (better, true) knee brace. Despite the fact that I was a graduate student at the school, they then spent the next TWO YEARS trying to bill for an unnecessary brace that was already covered by my full time student insurance. US health care is ridiculously expensive in comparison to GDP (as much as twice as much as such countries as France, much less Canada) and provides fantastic service for folks with the need for delicate heart surgery, and a huge, unnecessary inconvenience for people who need to have a docter check if they have a cold, the flu or pneumonia. The US health care system is not bad -- in fact, in many ways it's better than ours -- but it's hugely expensive versus the results.

4. A health care professional, if you really are such a beast, should be the first person to realize that the health care they PERSONALLY EXPERIENCE is the LEAST POSSIBLE representation of any system, as you will be able to pull strings due to your position.

5. Last, but not least: don't feel the need to spread the fact that you're a prick by posting on Internet forums. Your friends already know, your enemies as well, and the rest of us don't care.

 

[kkgg7]

last time it was suggested I should be castrated because I suggest something they hate. This time, Register123's sex life becomes the topic because he thinks the American health care system is superior. Are members supposed to be allowed to insult others like this, no matter how senior or respected he thinks he is?

I don't find these comments offensive to be honest, but incredible amusing that well educated adults have to talk like this.

 

[nfitz]

This time, Register123's sex life becomes the topic because he thinks the American health care system is superior.

??? No one has mentioned Register123's sex life, as far as I can tell.

What are looking at that the rest of us can't see? Or are you fishing again?

 

[Palma]

[clears throat] OK, since you're not kkgg7 (aka 'the masterdickcheese'), I will take four seconds to clarify a couple of things for you:

1. I don't believe you have intimate and extensive experience of anything, except possibly your right hand having intimate and extensive experience of other 'more intimate' parts of your anatomy.

.

This is what he is looking at that the rest of you seem to pretend not to see. I cannot believe when i saw that post. These posts on these various forums seems to have gotton way out of which with the language being used to insult people who have opinions

 

[Register123]

Riverdale Rink Rat, is pretty disgusting as the name suggests. Whether you believe I have the experience or not, with the US system is besides the point. Do an internet search yourself for the facts. My original point was that a lot of Canadians have somehow come to the conclusion that the US as a country has no social safety net yet it is fact that they have programs that are virtually the same to every single one that Canada has. They have unemployment benefits, social housing, welfare, SSI, many states have workers disability benefits, medicaid for the poor, medicare for the elderly and disabled. Whether you believe me or not I worked in a privately run cancer centre that accepted medicare coverage as full payment, and this was not out of the normal. For many hospitals to receive full accreditation they must accept medicare, this varies state to state. Eug posted an article out of one state some 4yrs old. If this is your idea of solid concrete evidence great, I don't feel the need to post such, since I have first hand experience and have seen reality. Not trying to convince you of anything.

 

[adma]

last time it was suggested I should be castrated because I suggest something they hate.

Yeah, advocating arson on heritage properties. Which is repugnant beyond the "they" you refer to.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The whole problem with the "if you have the smarts/work hard it is easy to rise to the top" thesis isn't that such scenarios doesn't exist - it does - just that it doesn't happen as often as one would hope it does.

Eug:

Interesting they don't tell you how they arrive at the "cost" though - I mean, just look at the use of medical technologies like MRI in the US and one can understand how these "costs" can be artificially inflated - and it often provides minimal benefit clinically speaking. Not to mention the additional issues with fee-for-service for physicians in what should have been integrated care (like, seriously, does everything needs to go to the doctor?). Plus the US system is by default structured towards cherry picking by having varying rates for reimbursement.

How did the topic gets so OT BTW?

AoD

 

[Register123]

There is no doubt over use of certain diagnostic exams, blood testing , etc. , that do not add benefit to the patient and adds to the percentage of GDP spent on healthcare dollars. I believe in both systems a much larger part of the money spent on healthcare should go towards health education and prevention. There are Stark laws to prevent doctors from profiting by referring patients for services that they might own or profit from, although I have seen this happen, it is illegal and sometimes prosecuted.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Plus patients are demanding clinically unnecessary services AND medications. There are very good reasons why one shouldn't talk to the doctor about ________ (insert fav. meds here), contrary to what the ads suggests. Plus the American system as a whole is over the top bureaucratic - just think of the amount of paper shuffling required between the doctors, HMOs/insurers, hospitals, client, government, plus throw in an extra dose of malpractice suits. Mind you, in some avenues at some providers, they are much ahead (like electronic health records).

Alas, health promotion and prevention is much underrated. But of course, the government doesn't like to fund what is difficult to measure (unlike clinical procedures) and the public is amoured with heroic medicine. Like, how can eating healthy be nearly as sexy as double quintuple bypass plus simultaneous full brain transplant - and the sheer PR value of a patient being raised from the dead?

We North Americans have a very warped sense of priorities when it comes to health (read medical) care, and I think all are suffering financially and societally because of our narrow view of it when our health budget eats up 40+% of government expenditure.

AoD