[Automation Gallery]

Unfortunately its a 138 year old football league thats not much supported anymore here in Toronto...With the Argos averging a bit over 20.000 fans at the Skydome i think it would be a good idea to now build a smaller open concept venue to call home.

 

[gei]

....it does not reflect on Toronto as a baseball market....it is one of the weaker baseball markets in MLB and has been for a long time.....especially when you consider that this is a sports market where performance and attendance are not necessarily linked (see Leafs...see TFC).

Just to disprove this statement some more:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ys-off-for-jays-at-box-office/article2011967/
Jays attendance & TV ratings soaring

The Toronto Blue Jays are last in the American League East, but their fans still love them.

Credit convergence as the Jays buck a trend by showing a strong growth in attendance for their home games while most other teams are in decline.

In fact, the Blue Jays are leading all major-league clubs at the gate with a hefty 56.5-per-cent increase in attendance through their first 11 games at the Rogers Centre when compared to the same period last season.

....

Not only are the Blue Jays attracting more fans to their games, the national TV viewing audience has also experienced a healthy jump to an average of 541,000 a broadcast, up from 437,000 last season.

And this is after ONE off-season that just provided a little bit of hope. We're still predicted to finish last in the division.

Do you realize how insanely high those TV ratings are? They AVERAGE over half a million viewers per game! The Jays are clearly one of the STRONGER baseball markets.

In fact if you look at TV ratings for other clubs it really puts things into perspective. It's a well known fact that the Jays are a cash-cow for Rogers. To be honest I always knew the Jays got good ratings, but I didn't realize it's quite possible they are one of the most-watched teams in all of baseball.

 

[jn_12]

In case anyone cares, similar numbers for Jays:
2010 - 26th
2009 - 22nd
2008 - 18th
2007 - 18th
2006 - 18th
2005 - 23rd
2004 - 24th
2003 - 23rd
2002 - 25th
2001 - 23rd

The Blue Jays are one of the only teams that announce actual attendance figures (they've done this since the beginning of 2009). Most teams inflate their numbers. For example, a game in Pittsburgh a few weeks ago had an announced attendance of 12,000 but in reality there was less than 10% of that http://angels.ocregister.com/2011/04/26/good-seats-still-available/79017/

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Digging down??? If you dig down and build an additional 15,000 seats, there's no way you can fit a football field in the Skydome . Are the Argonauts supposed to play on half a field? In addition, shouldn't our mayor be supporting Toronto's pro sports teams rather than destroy one of them (our oldest) by bringing in a foreign product?

Mr. Ford: fly to the United States if you want US football. We already have a football league in this country and the a football team that's 138 years old.

The Argos have their own problems. Attendance for starters. Ford was voted in by people who support them. Blame them. I hope you don't support the Jays.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Unfortunately its a 138 year old football league thats not much supported anymore here in Toronto...With the Argos averging a bit over 20.000 fans at the Skydome i think it would be a good idea to now build a smaller open concept venue to call home.

50 percent do not like sports. The other can only name the Leafs player of the week.

 

[MapleLeafs]

And what made you think the NBA wanted to do any of that.

Because they had less franchises then the NFL and MLB? No North American pro sports league has expressed any desire to expand anytime soon, and that view doesn't seem to be changing.

Crazy childish BS of forum members asking other forum members if they have the cash to throw in to an NFL team...lets be realistic here when it comes to finances.

All I am asking is for some other posters to be. I've outlined why I don't think private money can be realistically found for a stadium and a team. I have yet to see any solid points to contrary.

 

[TOareaFan]

The Blue Jays are one of the only teams that announce actual attendance figures (they've done this since the beginning of 2009).

Do you have a source showing that the Jays have a different methodology for announcing attendance than the rest of baseball?

In the early 90's, when the Jays broke the Major League attendance record (those of us there the night the record broke got a nifty little plexiglass stand/holder for our ticket) the LA Dodgers ( who held the previous record ) issued a press release congratulating the Jays but reminded people that American League teams (like he Jays) announced tickets sold as the attendance (wether the people showed up or not) while National League teams ( like the Dodgers) announced attendance based on actual turnstile count.....IIRC they stopped short of calling the Jays' attendance record a sham but the implication was clear that they did not consider their record broken.

The two leagues moved to the same methodology of counting/announcing attendance in 2006 as revenue sharing required equal measures of counting....they opted for the American League approach where any ticket sold is counted in "attendance"......pretty sure the Jays use the same method as the rest of baseball but would love to see the evidence that they are, somehow, unique and exempt from baseball's rules.
Here is an oldish link that summarizes how various leagues count attendance.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060514/news_lz1s14moreatt.html

 

[gristle]

To be a major player in North America, Toronto needs an NFL team.

Of course! This is why Toronto ranks behind Green Bay Wisconsin in every important measure! We have no fricking NFL team!!!




It's usually best that politicians keep their fetishes to themselves.

 

[TOareaFan]

Just to disprove this statement some more:



And this is after ONE off-season that just provided a little bit of hope. We're still predicted to finish last in the division.

Do you realize how insanely high those TV ratings are? They AVERAGE over half a million viewers per game! The Jays are clearly one of the STRONGER baseball markets.

In fact if you look at TV ratings for other clubs it really puts things into perspective. It's a well known fact that the Jays are a cash-cow for Rogers. To be honest I always knew the Jays got good ratings, but I didn't realize it's quite possible they are one of the most-watched teams in all of baseball.

Let's judge the Jay's attendance after a full year....not 11 games!

Yes they get good TV numbers.....as I said before, this is largely due to their TV rights area being the entire country not just Toronto....while this is good business for the Jays and Rogers, it does not mean Toronto is a good baseball market....it means that across the country the Jays get almost as many viewers per game as TSN's Friday night CFL.games get (almost)

 

[Big Daddy]

it means that across the country the Jays get almost as many viewers per game as TSN's Friday night CFL.games get (almost)

Well, I don’t have any statistics, but from my personal experience around the water cooler, ain't nobody asking or talking about the latest Argo or CFL game - nobody, noooobody. It's as close to irrelevant as it gets with sports teams.

I'm not an NFL fan by any stretch (or even football for that matter), but almost everyone I know is a fan and has a Cap and/or sweatshirt for one or more of the NFL teams - do you ever see and Argos cap or sweatshirt? and how many of our friends and colleagues are excited about the Superbowl? How many bother with the Greycup? Does anyone know where it will be next year? Not Toronto, thats for sure.

Not to mention, it's bad enough our city is involved with an irrelevant league but to get your ass handed to you by Saskatchewan? Winnipeg?? gulp Hamilton.....and regularly!!!
Good God have mercy. Could anything be more embarrassing?

I think just like the whole country roots for the Jays they would root for an NFL team here too.

Having said that, I still don't think it's feasible AND I hate sucking up and following the Americans again.



A far better idea is why don't we all just pool our money and buy a real hockey team?

 

[JMSRead]

1) comparing Jays ratings to CFL ratings- a CFL team plays 18 games a year. Jays 162. Jays draw similar TV numbers per game, but over a FAR greater number of games. Also, those CFL ratings feature two home markets, vs only one for the Jays.

High Jays ratings should not be dismissed because they're national. The Raptors and TFC are also shown nationally and draw nowhere close to Jays numbers. (I'm a fan of those teams too, but just stating facts).

2) I don't have anything to link to (could find it if I googled for a while), but I have heard Bob McCown and Jeff Blair state several times that once Paul Beeston replaced Paul Godfrey, they cut down on comps, and stopped counting comps as attendance. This is definitely still in practise with some teams. The Rays gave away something like 25K seats to their last game in 2010 and counted it as a sellout, as one example.

Toronto is a fine baseball market, with the potential to be an excellent one.

 

[TOareaFan]

^

1. I did not dismiss the Jay's TV ratings...I just said they do not indicate the level of fan support for baseball in Toronto, they measure the number of Canadians across the country who have an interest in watching them on TV. The problem with the ratings (as compared to other MLB teams) is it is very hard for the Jays to convert a lot of those people into paying customers

2. The Jays may not give away many tickets to individual games the way the Rays did....but EVERY night, their announced attendance is boosted by a number (not a small number) of fans who bought 80 games for $95 ('bout $1.20 per game) through the Toronto Star......you see, MOST MLB teams have different packages that discount the cost of going.......the Jays included!

EDIT: it may be helpful to read what Forbes magazine had to say about the Jays in March of this year as they ranked the team 27th in value amongst MLB franchises!

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Toronto-Blue-Jays_339533.html

 

[JMSRead]

- I don't have the numbers infront of me, but something tells me that most Toronto Blue Jay viewers are living in the GTA. In all the articles I have read about strong Jays TV numbers or mediocre attendance, I have never seen that explained by suggesting that many of those viewers aren't in the GTA, and so it's hard for the Jays to turn them into paying customers. Maybe you know something Canadian sports media writers don't.

"The problem with the ratings (as compared to other MLB teams) is it is very hard for the Jays to convert a lot of those people into paying customers"

- Rogers owns Sportsnet and The Fan. So even if those people aren't going to the dome, they are 'paying customers' in a sense. I would imagine the ad revenue from 162 well rated 3-4 hour blocks in a sought after demographic (M 25 - 54) is fairly valuable to Rogers.

- My goodness, selling cheap seats in the 500 level (which every team does) is not close to the same thing as giving away comps and counting them as paid attendance.

And yes, those Toronto Star passes are in small number. Myself and a couple other friends weren''t able to buy those passes this year. I was told they had a limited number that were sold out extremely quickly. I was explicitly told by a ticket agent that they are in small supply.

I'm not arguing that the Jays don't have their struggles or their issues. They do. But in light of 18 years without a playoff race, I think the fan interest, attendance, and TV ratings add up to a respectable and understandable level of support given the circumstances. You can't judge those things without taking on field achievements into account. The only team that's really in a comparable situation to Toronto is the Orioles, and they've been drawing about the same as Toronto the past few years. While you might describe Baltimore as a market that's in a lull now, nobody would call that a 'weak baseball market'.

If the Jays make the playoffs next year, and see no bump in attendance that year or the following one - then yeah - maybe a weak baseball market. But based on the last time the Jays were competitive (late 80s/early 90s), I doubt that would be the case.

I'm just going to leave it at that, I think.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

- I don't have the numbers infront of me, but something tells me that most Toronto Blue Jay viewers are living in the GTA.

FWIW, the Jays have a ton of fans in Saskatchewan. A buddy of mine married a Sask girl, and the wedding was the second most important event for 1/2 of the guests, including the maid of honour and father of the bride. Being in Toronto meant getting to see their first Jays game live. I think that the WS wins made a TON of Jays fans. The ensuing hundreds of years of crap baseball has dimmed the ardour, but a decent run at the playoffs would have national TV ratings spiking along with 'Dome attendance.

 

[gei]

Yes they get good TV numbers.....as I said before, this is largely due to their TV rights area being the entire country not just Toronto....while this is good business for the Jays and Rogers, it does not mean Toronto is a good baseball market....it means that across the country the Jays get almost as many viewers per game as TSN's Friday night CFL.games get (almost)

Ultimately, more people watch the Blue Jays than almost every other team in baseball. And yet somehow you still insist they are NOT a good baseball market?

You just can't win with some people...

1. I did not dismiss the Jay's TV ratings...I just said they do not indicate the level of fan support for baseball in Toronto, they measure the number of Canadians across the country who have an interest in watching them on TV. The problem with the ratings (as compared to other MLB teams) is it is very hard for the Jays to convert a lot of those people into paying customers

Uh.. seriously? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

High viewership = profit. Every team in every sport league in North America makes SIGNIFICANTLY MORE money from TV viewership/advertising than they do from ticket sales. This is a well known fact. This is why it's also a well known fact that the Jays are a cash cow for Rogers. The last few years have been 'rebuilding' years and Rogers knows and publicly acknowledges that attendance will dwindle while things are built back up... it's just a temporary downturn.

Look at the last time the Jays made a somewhat big splash in the FA market (2005... the year they signed burnett, bj ryan, etc). That year they had the 3rd highest operating income in all of baseball. ie they made lots of money... more than even the yankees and red sox.

In conclusion, just give up.