In case anyone cares, similar numbers for Jays:
2010 - 26th
2009 - 22nd
2008 - 18th
2007 - 18th
2006 - 18th
2005 - 23rd
2004 - 24th
2003 - 23rd
2002 - 25th
2001 - 23rd

As I said before, the attendance you're referencing for the Jays and Raptors is over a period where the teams have had very little success on field/court. In the Jays case, none (in terms of making the playoffs).

So, I'm not sure that attendance proves much about sports interest in the city. Nearly every team in North America that struggles for a 15+ years starts languishing in attendance.
 
The NFL is very much driven by revenue sharing of its US TV contract. I really have to wonder if a Canadian team would get the same revenue sharing deal as the US teams.
 
Not great? The ONE time they were just a 2nd round playoff team, they were 4th in the entire league! Clearly the fan support is there if and when they choose to be a winning team. I would say the Raptors fan support IS great.

I posted those figures in response to a post that said:

bogtrotter said:
The Raptors have been top 10 in attendance and value for the past 10 years (not this year for attendance however)

Clearly the statement that they have been top 10 for the past 10 years is incorrect.
 
As I said before, the attendance you're referencing for the Jays and Raptors is over a period where the teams have had very little success on field/court. In the Jays case, none (in terms of making the playoffs).

So, I'm not sure that attendance proves much about sports interest in the city. Nearly every team in North America that struggles for a 15+ years starts languishing in attendance.

Baseball has the highest percentage of teams that are unsuccessful (using playoff appearances as a proxy for success) every year. So if a team's ability to draw fans is based on making the playoffs there is a bit of a problem. I decided to compare the Jays to the Milluakee Brewers....I am not a huge baseball guy but, before I looked, it was my impression that they had been languishing out of the playoffs as much and as long (perhaps longer, I thought) than the Jays. After looking I see that they had 1 playoff (a wildcard spot) in the past ten years. Here are their results and their attendances compared to the Jays over the past ten years:

2010 - 3rd in their division...no playoffs...... 11th in attendance....15 spots up on Jays....about aboout 1.15million more fans.
2009 - 3rd in their division...no playoffs...... 9th in attendance....13 spots up on Jays.....about 1.2million more fans
2008 - 2nd in division....wildcard playoffs out in first round.......9th in attendance..9 spots up....about 600k more fans
2007 - 2nd in division......no playoffs.......1th in attendance......6 spots up on Jays.......about 500k more fans
2006 - 4th in division.....no playoffs.......17th in attendance......1 spot up on Jays.........about 33k more fans
2005 - 3rd in division.....no playoffs.......18th in attendance.......5 spots up on Jays.......about 200k more fans
2004 - 6th in division.....no playoffs.......20th in attendance.......4 spots up on Jays.......about 100k more fans
2003 - 6th in division.....no playoffs.......25th in attendance.......2 spots below the Jays...about 100k less fans
2002 - 6th in division.....no playoffs.......19th in attendance.......6 spots up on Jays.......about 330k more fans
2001 - 4th in division.....no playoffs.......13th in attendance.......10 spots up on Jays.......about 900k more fans

So, in the last 10 years the Jays have outdrawn the Brewers 1 and been on the other side of the ledger 9 times....during that 10 years nearly 500k more people attend Brewers games than Jays games on average each year! If you assume an average ticket price of $20.....that is $10 million in lost revenue! (plus whatever mulitiplier you want to apply for concession/parking/memorabilia sales!).

The onfield performance has been very similar (one outlier year where they made the post season for the first time in 26 years) and Milluakee is a much smaller town....both teams play in retractable roof stadiums (so weather is not a factor) for all of those 10 years and the stadiums are of roughly comparable size (Miller Park is slightly smaller than the Rogers Centre).

As I said, I am not a huge baseball guy. That said, it does amaze me how poor Jays attendance has become since the World Series years. As a sports guy I like to think that a city/region as large as ours and as diverse as ours should have room and be able to support many sports....the Jays, however, have had some very tough, lean, years. (NOTE....the trend is continuing so far this year the Brewers are outdrawing the Jays by 10k per game).
 
The NFL is very much driven by revenue sharing of its US TV contract. I really have to wonder if a Canadian team would get the same revenue sharing deal as the US teams.

As you note, collective revenue is a big part of the financial model. Any modification to that would make the numbers tougher to work and, I suspect, would be not an attracitve proposal to anyone looking to drop a franchise fee and build a stadium.
 
Baseball has the highest percentage of teams that are unsuccessful (using playoff appearances as a proxy for success) every year. So if a team's ability to draw fans is based on making the playoffs there is a bit of a problem. I decided to compare the Jays to the Milluakee Brewers....I am not a huge baseball guy but, before I looked, it was my impression that they had been languishing out of the playoffs as much and as long (perhaps longer, I thought) than the Jays. After looking I see that they had 1 playoff (a wildcard spot) in the past ten years. Here are their results and their attendances compared to the Jays over the past ten years:

2010 - 3rd in their division...no playoffs...... 11th in attendance....15 spots up on Jays....about aboout 1.15million more fans.
2009 - 3rd in their division...no playoffs...... 9th in attendance....13 spots up on Jays.....about 1.2million more fans
2008 - 2nd in division....wildcard playoffs out in first round.......9th in attendance..9 spots up....about 600k more fans
2007 - 2nd in division......no playoffs.......1th in attendance......6 spots up on Jays.......about 500k more fans
2006 - 4th in division.....no playoffs.......17th in attendance......1 spot up on Jays.........about 33k more fans
2005 - 3rd in division.....no playoffs.......18th in attendance.......5 spots up on Jays.......about 200k more fans
2004 - 6th in division.....no playoffs.......20th in attendance.......4 spots up on Jays.......about 100k more fans
2003 - 6th in division.....no playoffs.......25th in attendance.......2 spots below the Jays...about 100k less fans
2002 - 6th in division.....no playoffs.......19th in attendance.......6 spots up on Jays.......about 330k more fans
2001 - 4th in division.....no playoffs.......13th in attendance.......10 spots up on Jays.......about 900k more fans

So, in the last 10 years the Jays have outdrawn the Brewers 1 and been on the other side of the ledger 9 times....during that 10 years nearly 500k more people attend Brewers games than Jays games on average each year! If you assume an average ticket price of $20.....that is $10 million in lost revenue! (plus whatever mulitiplier you want to apply for concession/parking/memorabilia sales!).

The onfield performance has been very similar (one outlier year where they made the post season for the first time in 26 years) and Milluakee is a much smaller town....both teams play in retractable roof stadiums (so weather is not a factor) for all of those 10 years and the stadiums are of roughly comparable size (Miller Park is slightly smaller than the Rogers Centre).

As I said, I am not a huge baseball guy. That said, it does amaze me how poor Jays attendance has become since the World Series years. As a sports guy I like to think that a city/region as large as ours and as diverse as ours should have room and be able to support many sports....the Jays, however, have had some very tough, lean, years. (NOTE....the trend is continuing so far this year the Brewers are outdrawing the Jays by 10k per game).

Well, we're getting into very specific examples here, which might be boring for others to read, but OK..

"Baseball has the highest percentage of teams that are unsuccessful (using playoff appearances as a proxy for success) every year. So if a team's ability to draw fans is based on making the playoffs there is a bit of a problem."
- Whether it's a problem for you or not, it's true.

As for the Brewers/Jays comparison:
- The Milwaukee Brewers opened a new stadium, Miller Park, in 2001. Honestly, this is probably the biggest reason for Milwaukee having a major attendance bump this decade (look at their numbers before this). With the opening of any new stadium, you tend to see at least a few years of attendance bump. (See: Minnesota Twins last year, Jays in the early 90s)
- After the excitement of a new ballpark wore off, the Brewers became competitive, nearly making the playoffs in 07 and making the playoffs in 08.
- As a comparison, there has really been no time in the past 18 years that the Blue Jays have been in a pennant race. Basically two decades without fans feeling like the team has a chance for playoffs late in the season. That makes a HUGE difference in attendance. Look at September attendance numbers for contending vs non contending teams.

Look, I'm not saying that that Toronto is an incredible baseball town like New York, Boston or Chicago - but can be a very good one, and this has been an incredibly uneventful 18 years. And pointing to poor attendance for a team that hasn't been in a playoff race in nearly twenty years - frankly doesn't show much. A lack of hope creates apathy. If the Jays make the playoffs in the next year or two, you'll see good numbers.

A better comparison would be Philadelphia. Similar size to Toronto. Good sports town.
2001/2002 they averaged about 20K a game - very near the bottom of the league. Fast forward to now and they're one of the elite teams in the game. Now, they also have had a bump from a new stadium, but more importantly they've been a playoff team the past few years.

Baltimore is another comparison. Stuck with the Jays in the AL East, they haven't had a shot at the playoffs in nearly the same amount of time the Jays have. And their attendance the past few years has been just about the same as Toronto's. Baltimore is a fantastic baseball town - there's just apathy because fans feel there's no chance at playoffs.

It's also worth noting that while the Blue Jays have had poor attendance recently, their TV numbers are excellent. Considering Rogers owns Sportsnet and The Fan, those numbers may be near as important as attendance:
http://tinyurl.com/6djmfql
http://tinyurl.com/6ch6n8z
 
^We can agree to disagree but we must be getting our numbers from differnt places.....only once in the last 10 years have Philly averaged 20k per game....the balance of the decade they have been higher......Toronto's tv ratings are artificially increased because most of their games are on a national cable network so, while they play in a market of 5 - 6 million....their tv market is the full >30 million market that is canada.......they are the only team in baseball that has this going for them.....while this does contribute to the profitability of the organization (or reduces their losses)....it does not reflect on Toronto as a baseball market....it is one of the weaker baseball markets in MLB and has been for a long time.....especially when you consider that this is a sports market where performance and attendance are not necessarily linked (see Leafs...see TFC).
 
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To get to the point - how many individuals are there in the GTA that would have the wherewithal to finance a risky adventure such as this?

A - the list is incredibly small - if not empty - so the whole exercise is moot.

The Feds just said no to Quebec city - QUEBEC, who gets everything - what are the chances they would ante-up in Toronto for a franchise that would mortally wound the CFL?

A - Nil - so the whole exercise is moot.

What are the chance the Province - (heading into an election next year, fast on the heels of the Liberal debacle) getting involved?

A - Nil - so the whole exercise is moot.

Would the other NFL owners allow a franchise outside of the USA?

Unknowm but even if they did, it would take years and likely huge payouts to the Bills and others


Also, the Fords shot themselves in the foot when they went on this "kill the gravey train" position because the Province will now have to follow suit to save votes - and you can bet that won't includes billion dollar stadiums in T.O.

This is just a fantasy - great for discussion, but certainly not feasible in any way.


Unless of course you design it in such a way so the field could be flooded and frozen for hockey games too....hmmmm :D
 
Look at ESPN.com/MLB - PHI averaged 22,800 a game in 2001, and 20,400 in 2002.

Toronto is able to show its games to a far larger area - but if anything thats an asset to the franchise. Not a point to dismiss. As well, I doubt many are watching outside of the GTA. The Raptors are also shown nationally and their ratings are about 30% of the Blue Jays.

The Leafs are absolutely the only franchise in Toronto where performance and attendance are not linked. The 'bloom is off the rose' with the TFC, so to speak. You may remember there was a fan revolt at the end of last season because of poor play. There were also several articles this season about a notable decrease in fans in seats this year.

Keep in mind - the last time the Jays had a playoff team, they set attendance records. Part of that was due to the new stadium, so I don't expect those days to return. But with hope of playoffs (which may happen next year with expected playoff expansion), they would easily average in the top ten in MLB consistently. Toronto is not a bad baseball market. It's been asleep.

Sure - we can agree to disagree.
 
Phil Lind of Rogers said on Prime Time Sports a few months ago that he believed the Rogers Centre could be renovated for NFL by lowering the playing field - for what it's worth.
That's another pipe dream, but still far more realistic than this Portlands fantasy.
 
Baseball has the highest percentage of teams that are unsuccessful (using playoff appearances as a proxy for success) every year. So if a team's ability to draw fans is based on making the playoffs there is a bit of a problem.

It's MUCH more complicated than that. The problem with debating attendance numbers on forums like these is that people here simply don't understand sports.

Take myself for example... I'm a huge Jays fan, and I don't attend many games when a) the team has no hope of making the playoffs and b) the team has no young prospects worth watching. It has nothing do with them just 'not making the playoffs'

There's a lot more to it than just 'making the playoffs' or not. A team in the playoff hunt (ie in 2nd place like the Brewers you were comparing to for a few years) will draw way more fans than a team that is way out of the race. Not to mention a team that has recently made the playoffs or is expected to make the playoffs soon (ie lots of young talent worth going to see) will also draw more fans.

Ultimately there is absolutely NO attendance issue whatsoever for the Jays and Raptors... it's not even a topic worth discussing. Put a good team out there and people will come out in droves.

The only time attendance issues are worth discussing is when a team IS doing well and still doesn't draw fans. That NEVER happens in Toronto... unlike places like Atlanta, Tampa Bay, etc. THOSE guys have attendance issues.

If and when the Jays make the playoffs, tickets will be the hottest commodity in the city and virtually impossible to get. Even during playoff games Tampa has to give incredible incentives just to fill the seats. This entire discussion is a joke.
 
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Anyone have any comment on Ford's suggestion that it would be possible to dig out the Rogers Centre to add an additional 15,000 seats? Sounds like quite a feat of engineering.
Sounds like it would wipe out its use for both baseball and the CFL.
 
Doug Ford was on Prime Time Sports yesterday and suggested that there are 5 possible sites for a stadium: SkyDome, Portlands, Woodbine, Downsview, and Exhibition Stadium (yes, that's what he said). Here's the podcast: http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20110505_180014_11612 He didn't seem to understand the large battle ahead of him in getting a NFL team in Toronto. All he was saying that a team would need political will and Toronto is providing that. He suggested Toronto was next in line after LA in getting a team, though he hasn't actually spoken to NFL Commissioner Goodell yet.
 

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