[CanadianNational]

Why has it taken so long for Waterfront Toronto to do anything and why are the Fords able to move so quickly?

Whatever your politics are on the matter it's a very reasonable question.

It is a reasonable question. Waterfront Toronto has been at it for a decade now - and it shows, although it has taken some time. Here's a full list:

Completed:

Cherry Beach improvements and playing fields
Port Lands greening
The Rees Wavedeck, The Simcoe Wavedeck, The Spadina Wavedeck.
Corus Entertainment Building
Sugar Beach
The HTO Park
Sherbourne Common Park
York Quay initial revitalization
Martin Goodman Trail Improvements at Ontario Place
Marilyn Bell Park improvements
Western Beaches Watercourse

Actually under construction:

Union Station Revitalization
York Quay parking and plazas
The Pan-Am games plan for the West Donlands
Donlands Park and the flood protection landform
Underpass Park
George Brown College
River City condos
Water's Edge Promenade (both east and west, though unconnected)
Toronto Community Housing
Tommy Thompson Park

Immediate Developments:

Parkside condo (Safdie)
Bayside village development (Hines)
3C village site (Foster and Partners / Cityzen)

Future Plans, Environmental Assessments and Lovely Renderings:

Just about anything in the lower Portlands, east of Cherry Street and South of Lakeshore Boulevard, including:

Queen's Quay Boulevard East transit from Bay to Cherry Street. This was supposed to be in by now, but funding, bickering, etc., have led to it being thoroughly delayed.
The entirety of the Queen's Quay Boulevard (excluding the 800m pilot stretch) from Spadina to Parliament.

The Parliament Street wavedeck.
The York Quay "cultural village".
The Portland Slip.
Footbridges at the foot of Spadina, Peter, Police Basin, Rees and Simcoe streets.
Cherry Street Transit.
Mouth of the Don River reconfiguration.
Lower Portlands residential and park developments.
Keating Channel Precinct.
Lake Ontario Park.


Much has been done, But Waterfront Toronto's plan has been to redevelop the 'Front' of the city first (Queen's Quay), before it attempted the massive city 'Side' (The Portlands). I personally believe attention should by paid by the city to finishing this crucial piece of Harbourfront revitalization before attempting the Portlands.

It is interesting that the city believes it has the resources to begin the Portlands - yet not finish the central Queen Quay's 'spine'.
It is also interesting that Watefront Toronto has suddenly jumped and said it has the money for it's plan....yet they've given no indication of that until now. Maybe the Ford's have gotten a rise out of them after all.
If you look at the list above, a great deal has been done. But in real time it has seemed glacially slow.
I believe the Fords have been able to seem to move quickly - because they do move hastily - announcing plans before there is any substance to them. i.e: The Sheppard Subway.
It's easier, and more exciting, to start than finish.

 

[Paleo]

Why has it taken so long for Waterfront Toronto to do anything and why are the Fords able to move so quickly?

Whatever your politics are on the matter it's a very reasonable question.

7 years of environmental assessments?! It's a freaking wasteland down there. Start building something already!

Maybe if you opened your eyes. (see post above)

I just caught the G&M write up on this:

“We now have a plan. It is absolutely phenomenal,†Mayor Ford told reporters.

Even as the mayor threw his support behind the vision, Mr. Kuhne said his drawings should not be regarded as a plan, but a “collection of ideas.â€

“What we have tried to do is collect them all together and tried to arrange a banquet of new possibilities,†he told reporters. “It’s not a plan. It’s just a collection of powerful ideas that came to us and what we tried to do is arrange the banquet table so that there’s a place for everybody.â€

 

[Filip]

Belgrade called, they want their Danube masterplan back.

Although, I would not mind seeing this come to reality.

 

[jje1000]

Belgrade called, they want their Danube masterplan back.

The Danube plan looks far superior to what we have here. It actually looks like an urban neighbourhood and feels connected to its surroundings. Compare the number of pedestrian bridges over the canals, for example.

Ideally, I'd prefer if elements of both were mixed in- I like the current idea of the view line extending to the CN Tower, the original idea of a naturalized mouth for the Don (maybe smaller) and the original concept for the section beside the Gardiner.

 

[Filip]

Actually they're eerily similar. I'm intimately familiar with Libeskind's Belgrade plan, and so many elements of Ford's plan seem directly out from it. From a shopping centre anchor, to an opera house (or similar landmark) to signature point towers. The road network also follows an irregular path. Even the Danube plan has an 'avenue' with sight lines to Belgrade's largest cathedral (arguably its landmark, like our CN tower).

If I did not know Belgrade's plan was from dear ol' Libeskind, I'd think the same architect designed it.

 

[jje1000]

I really do hope that any revised plan includes more commercial buildings mixed into the residential spaces. It's far too segregated right now.

 

[Filip]

In general, I'm one of Waterfront Toronto's biggest supporters.. But I was very disappointed when they released their plan for the Portlands. I believe there was too much green space, not enough development, and a general feeling that they just got lazy/tired with this final piece of the puzzle. I felt there was nothing exciting, nothing new, nothing special.. Just more condos and more parks.

People complain about not enough green space in this plan (I think there's just the right balance), but honest to God.. The islands are RIGHT THERE! I'm sure a full build out of the port lands would include a ferry to the islands, if not a bridge.

 

[CanadianNational]

If the Fords wanted to be more politically astute and avoid all this kerfuffle, they should have pushed to set their plans within the framework approved by of Waterfront Toronto. The Portlands plan as it stands is honourable, sustainable and good - but admittedly not wildly exciting. I wish the Fords were not so clumsy as to turn opinion against things that could, if done properly, be an enjoyable asset. That Ferris Wheel, for one.

The Waterfront Toronto plan was not completely set in stone regarding land uses, street layouts, plot usage and the like. The splashy and glitzy stuff the Fords seek could have been considerately refined and altered just fine - within the cradle of a naturalized Don River mouth, East Harbour park, the planned expanses of mixed-use neighbourhoods and TTC transit. Easily welcomed elements of their plan, like the diagonal sightline boulevard, the inner ring road and a number of the wharves, could have been accomodated without fuss.

It's not as exciting sounding as an out-of-thin-air rendering - but the EA's are all but done, the money spent and the plans council approved. Who knows if, despite everything, this will go through council or not? If it does, I hope more of Waterfront Toronto's superior quality plans make their way into this one's final makeup.

 

[JMSRead]

I have a question: At about 4:00 in the presentation, there is an image of GTA subways, highways and LRVs (I presume their term for LRTs?).

The image shows a 'Waterfront LRV line' an 'airport line' and a 'don mills line'. The three lines seem to essentially act like a DRL.

Apologies if I've missed this - but have we seen this plan before? I know Transit City had a waterfront line and a don mills line, but Eglinton connected to the airport...

 

[MetroMan]

If the Fords wanted to be more politically astute and avoid all this kerfuffle, they should have pushed to set their plans within the framework approved by of Waterfront Toronto. The Portlands plan as it stands is honourable, sustainable and good - but admittedly not wildly exciting. I wish the Fords were not so clumsy as to turn opinion against things that could, if done properly, be an enjoyable asset. That Ferris Wheel, for one.

The Waterfront Toronto plan was not completely set in stone regarding land uses, street layouts, plot usage and the like. The splashy and glitzy stuff the Fords seek could have been considerately refined and altered just fine - within the cradle of a naturalized Don River mouth, East Harbour park, the planned expanses of mixed-use neighbourhoods and TTC transit. Easily welcomed elements of their plan, like the diagonal sightline boulevard, the inner ring road and a number of the wharves, could have been accomodated without fuss.

It's not as exciting sounding as an out-of-thin-air rendering - but the EA's are all but done, the money spent and the plans council approved. Who knows if, despite everything, this will go through council or not? If it does, I hope more of Waterfront Toronto's superior quality plans make their way into this one's final makeup.

Thats a great viewpoint. In terms of the councillors that I've been in touch with, Josh Matlow and Mike Layton seem to think that there won't be support for this beyond the executive committee. That said, WaterfrontTO is under orders from the city and the city is run by Rob Ford and co. so they have to adjust to this new reality. It would be smart for WaterfrontTO to propose exactly what you suggested: "Hey, we hear you and want to cooperate. Let us finish the groundwork that we've started and in the meantime, we'll adjust our plans to serve the uses you propose."

 

[EnviroTO]

Why has it taken so long for Waterfront Toronto to do anything and why are the Fords able to move so quickly?

The Ford's didn't do anything. They are looking to change ownership of the lands and published pictures. The history of the waterfront is littered with renderings and plans.

7 years of environmental assessments?! It's a freaking wasteland down there. Start building something already!

There haven't been 7 years of environmental assessments. In 2007 there was a design competition for the Don River Naturalization. Today there are plans for where transit would go, where parks would be, the height restrictions on each building, where water pipes and sewers would go, etc. There is a huge list of projects that have already been built elsewhere. Now they need to reinvent the plan. The Fords haven't sped things up, they have slowed things down. We were Detailed Design complete in the Port Lands and are now in the early stages of Conceptual Design. West Don Lands is under construction, East Bayfront is under construction.

Concept / Statement of Objectives
Conceptual Design
Detailed Design / Infrastructure Plan / Environmental Assessment
Zoning Approved
Building Plan / Engineering
Building Permit / Infrastructure Tendering
Unit Sales / Financing Requirements Met
Construction
Inspection
Opening.

Whatever your politics are on the matter it's a very reasonable question.

No. It is a question for the people uninformed with all that has already occurred and the realities of working with a limited budget. You can't plan every piece of that much land in detail quickly without burning through your budget and needing to go back for more financing. They planned other parcels of land first and those are under construction.

 

[nfitz]

Some of the stuff shown in that video are bizarre and disturbing. The Corus building knocked down and replaced with ... is it condos? The George Brown building next door as well ...

Ashbridges Bay LRT yard turned into a park?

It suggests whoever did this has some strange ideas ... or more likely is completely unfamiliar with the city. Or perhaps this was prepared some time (years) ago.

 

[andrewjm3d]

Lets face it, even the Fords know their plan will never come to fruition here. Their main goal here is to get the lands turned over to City Hall so they can sell it off to the highest bidder to fund their agenda. It's their very own 407, one quick sell off to pay off debts and a six stop subway expansions. All they are trying to do with the pretty renders is get public support to have the lands handed over to them from Waterfront Toronto. Anybody who believes otherwise most likely voted for Ford and still believes in the gravy train and Santa Claus.

To the point that we have the Toronto Islands right there so why do we need more green-space? I ask, what is wrong with more green space? What is wrong with returning the mouth of the Don to it's original state? The Downtown East side is getting massive amounts of dense urban development through waterfront Toronto, so why is it so wrong to set aside a region that has been industrial and toxic for so long and bring it back to a more green space for the city.

 

[typezed]

When the Fords gift us our new splashy Portlands the cherry trees will forever be in bloom.

 

[Marko]

Lets face it, even the Fords know their plan will never come to fruition here. Their main goal here is to get the lands turned over to City Hall so they can sell it off to the highest bidder to fund their agenda. It's their very own 407, one quick sell off to pay off debts and a six stop subway expansions. All they are trying to do with the pretty renders is get public support to have the lands handed over to them from Waterfront Toronto.

If they do somehow succeed in having everything put under the city's control and do proceed in selling - it's highly unlikely that it's all auctioned off in short order. A lot of work would need to be done before even the key pieces could be sold, let alone the 1000+ acres. When you consider that the property will increase in value over time, but also increase in value as it becomes cleaned up and development begins, it would make a lot more sense to sell a little at a time over the next decade or more. What if it could generate a billion a year for the next 10 years - would that change your view of how it impacts the city's bottom line and what could be done with those revenues? And that's just the property itself and not the eventual property taxes, business taxes, development fees, etc...

To the point that we have the Toronto Islands right there so why do we need more green-space? I ask, what is wrong with more green space? What is wrong with returning the mouth of the Don to it's original state? The Downtown East side is getting massive amounts of dense urban development through waterfront Toronto, so why is it so wrong to set aside a region that has been industrial and toxic for so long and bring it back to a more green space for the city.

I don't think the question was "why add any more green space at all?" but rather, "what is the right mix considering how much parkland is in the immediate vicinity?", which is a valid thing to discuss. It's not like Ford's concept eliminates all parkspace - there seems to be quite a lot actually, but probably less than half of what WT had proposed - which may have crossed into "too much" territory.

We'll likely end up with something that combines elements of both visions since neither is a stamped and approved set of building permits.