Automation Gallery said:
Something like this might work down there. Years ago when Mel was in power there was a rumour of a similar type of development setting up shop in one of those vacant lands.

Here is a pic of the Northport Mall (which kind of would look very Torontish in this area of our waterfront) in Yokohama Japan.

northportmall.jpg


http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgu...tbnw=146&prev=/images?q=mall&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=G
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that would be perfect at Yonge and Dundas...
 
I would debate that point alklay. It can be negative but somehow indoor retail just seems to work in an urban setting here in Toronto. Large format malls like Eaton Centre or Dufferin Mall seem to be maturing and enhancing the vitality of the urban experience, a vitality that they harmed greatly when they first opened their doors.

As of now the area around Maple Leaf Square is a destination location, it does not function as a real 24hr neighourhood. I suspect with the scale, amenities and atmosphere down there it will always be a transitory destination location and never feel like a functioning neighbourhood. The retail will reflect this. But maybe that is perfectly OK. It strengthens the city to have a diversity of scale and focus in various areas. An urban form and density that is the same and stretches on forever makes for a great photograph but a maddening environment.
 
I agree with others that Yorkville or Queen Street-type retail would probably not fare well in this area. Not a big problem though you can always go to Yorkville or Queen Street if that's what you're looking for (or Bloor St. or Yonge Street etc). This area has the opportunity to be something different and although I am on record here as being very dubious about the scale and pattern of development south of the highway there does seem to be a critical mass of mixed-use (commercial, residential and retail) emerging that bodes well, not to mention all the destination venues around that will keep the place hopping in the evening too.
 
Clearly this area will not be anything like Yorkville, Bloor or Queen Street as a retail, shopping destination. But that does not mean the counterpoint is to be the next Eaton Centre. No.

It can be something else, a third type. As I've advocated in other threads, this area is unique and as such it will establish and then re-establish a unique feel. Like almost all other new high-rise neighbourhoods in Toronto, the likely retail expectation will be a convenient type. We already know that a grocery store is coming to this mall. No doubt a Starbucks, Subway, dry cleaner, etc etc will be here or nearby. There are economic reasons for this as well as development patterns. But I imagine that there will be more here than just typical commercial/service amenities.
 
Lets not forget the 25 million visitors yearly spenting over $4.5 billion bucks towards our citys economy, you must take tourism into account and not only the area residents. Away from a couple of sports attractions in this neighbourhood there is very little for visitors to enjoy.
 
Automation Gallery said:
Lets not forget the 25 million visitors yearly spenting over $4.5 billion bucks towards our citys economy, you must take tourism into account and not only the area residents. Away from a couple of sports attractions in this neighbourhood there is very little for visitors to enjoy.
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It will develop its own character but to dismiss it with the highlighted words is a bit harsh (IMO)...those couple of sports attractions bring people to this neighbourhood, what, a minimum of 200 days a year...not many areas in Toronto can match that...can they? That does not even include the 4 or 5 tourists that something like the CN Tower attracts each year....or the 2 or 3 conventions at the MTCC south building a year......does not factor in, either, the guests that will stay at the new hotel on site nor the 50 or 60 people a year that will learn that exiting Union and walking through this neighbourhood is the fastest way to the waterfront from all points served by Union Station.

As someone else said...it does not have to be Queen West or Yorkville to be a cool or successful place (we already have one each of those) nor does it (or can it) have to become the EC...we have one of those too.

The opportunities for the retail are very limited.....the Longos takes up over 25% of the retail space......the two restaurants planned (and leased) by MLSE (one a sports bar on two levels at the east side of the comlex and another a "fine" dining spot by the west doors) take up just slightly more......so, of the 200k s.f. for retail, I believe over 60% is already accounted for....if MLSE go ahead with a store to sell their team apparal and branded "stuff", there will be very little space left for much more than service type retail (fast food, convenience store, dry cleaner)...but that is all ok...it blends with the area and the serves the community.

What the influx of people should (hopefully) do is provide customers for a growing streetfront retail scene on the ground floors of the other, more "traditional" condo projects in the 'hood. That type of retail often struggles when it is 100% reliant upon the tenants of whatever building it is situate in.....in this 'hood (thanks largely to this development along with telus and 18 York) that simply won't be the case.

I have big hopes for this neigbourhood but I think I am comfortable with it growing on its own and developing its own "character" and see no need to inflate expectations with things that might or could happen....there is a very good base to grow on already without needing to make hyperbolic predictions.
 
TOareaFan said:
It will develop its own character but to dismiss it with the highlighted words is a bit harsh (IMO)...those couple of sports attractions bring people to this neighbourhood, what, a minimum of 200 days a year...not many areas in Toronto can match that...can they? That does not even include the 4 or 5 tourists that something like the CN Tower attracts each year....or the 2 or 3 conventions at the MTCC south building a year......does not factor in, either, the guests that will stay at the new hotel on site nor the 50 or 60 people a year that will learn that exiting Union and walking through this neighbourhood is the fastest way to the waterfront from all points served by Union Station.
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So this area will become vibrant because people will walk through it? Or perhaps catch a game, then return to the car park or subway for their return journey? All you've done is list groups of people who may have an interest in something which happens to be at a venue in the area, but failed to state why they'd stay there after their specific interest has been fulfilled. What about those people who want to come there just because? People visit Yorkville or Queen West or any of the other, more established neighborhoods not only because they want to suckle at the capitalist teet, but because they just want to be there. The hipsters and emo kids who hit Queen and Bathurst and beyond, and the 30-somethings which go to Yorkville to 'see and be seen' are not so different for they are doing more in those locations than simply shopping and eating. They are experiencing the place itself. Whether they are there for the urbanistic dimensions or simply because it's the 'hot spot,' they are still there just to be there.

Though it is still an emerging area, I don't see this City Center South or whatever its being termed these days as having the same draw, simply because people won't go there just to be there. Skyscraper geeks will go to take pictures, Leaves and Raptrz fans will go there for games, others might gawk at the CN tower's aging-yet-timeless beauty, but who will take the time to go down there just to walk along Bremner? Who will travel from Dupont and Spadina to eat at Hoops? Who will propose to their future spouse in front of Infinity II? These are all things which could (and will) happen here, but the idea that a place is special is something which cannot be fabricated in glass and cannot be conjured out of precast. I'm not stating that because the area is new, it lacks charm and is therefore a failure, but simply that it will take much time and hard work to turn this into a 'special' area, one that people want to visit just to be there.

I guess this is analogous to the 'war on the car' BS we were inundated with earlier this summer, and Miller's calm retort: Is the city a place where you want to go, or drive through?
 
ProjectEnd said:
So this area will become vibrant because people will walk through it? Or perhaps catch a game, then return to the car park or subway for their return journey? All you've done is list groups of people who may have an interest in something which happens to be at a venue in the area, but failed to state why they'd stay there after their specific interest has been fulfilled. What about those people who want to come there just because? People visit Yorkville or Queen West or any of the other, more established neighborhoods not only because they want to suckle at the capitalist teet, but because they just want to be there. The hipsters and emo kids who hit Queen and Bathurst and beyond, and the 30-somethings which go to Yorkville to 'see and be seen' are not so different for they are doing more in those locations than simply shopping and eating. They are experiencing the place itself. Whether they are there for the urbanistic dimensions or simply because it's the 'hot spot,' they are still there just to be there.

Though it is still an emerging area, I don't see this City Center South or whatever its being termed these days as having the same draw, simply because people won't go there just to be there. Skyscraper geeks will go to take pictures, Leaves and Raptrz fans will go there for games, others might gawk at the CN tower's aging-yet-timeless beauty, but who will take the time to go down there just to walk along Bremner? Who will travel from Dupont and Spadina to eat at Hoops? Who will propose to their future spouse in front of Infinity II? These are all things which could (and will) happen here, but the idea that a place is special is something which cannot be fabricated in glass and cannot be conjured out of precast. I'm not stating that because the area is new, it lacks charm and is therefore a failure, but simply that it will take much time and hard work to turn this into a 'special' area, one that people want to visit just to be there.

I guess this is analogous to the 'war on the car' BS we were inundated with earlier this summer, and Miller's calm retort: Is the city a place where you want to go, or drive through?
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I think, in different ways, we are saying the same thing. It will take time and effort....but I think it will happen.

What the events do is bring people down sooner and faster and more often...so they will see the area as it grows and develops....that is all.....people will propose in front of CN Tower and, I would imagine, sporting venues already get more than their share of proposals (yuk)....I would imagine that someone might even pop the question in front of the roundhouse (if you can leave Leon's out of the pic)........

The individual spots will grow......it will be a fight against bigger box/corporate type spots but there will be opportunities for smaller business people to get in there and create some character......that coffee shop at the corner of Bremner and Navy Wharf gives me some hope....it could just as easy have been a tims or a SB or a SC....but it is, I believe, a one-off (or at least part of a very small chain) serves a decent cup of coffee and gives a place to hang out.......small glimmer, I think, of what can happen down there.
 
ProjectEnd said:
So this area will become vibrant because people will walk through it? Or perhaps catch a game, then return to the car park or subway for their return journey? All you've done is list groups of people who may have an interest in something which happens to be at a venue in the area, but failed to state why they'd stay there after their specific interest has been fulfilled. What about those people who want to come there just because? People visit Yorkville or Queen West or any of the other, more established neighborhoods not only because they want to suckle at the capitalist teet, but because they just want to be there. The hipsters and emo kids who hit Queen and Bathurst and beyond, and the 30-somethings which go to Yorkville to 'see and be seen' are not so different for they are doing more in those locations than simply shopping and eating. They are experiencing the place itself. Whether they are there for the urbanistic dimensions or simply because it's the 'hot spot,' they are still there just to be there.
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I would reckon that visitors to such areas are there due to the vast amount of commercialism present within the confines. Perhaps not to be "cool and hip", but rather for the sake of holding a job, or splurging some cash on some necessary, or utterly ridiculous purchases. Think about the amount of people who work within a stone's throw of Yorkville for example. They are not there to be "seen".

Regarding the case of Maple Leaf Square, I would expect the demographic of daytime visitors in its early years to entail mainly women. That Longo's will have some damn good appeal. (Valet parking for the gas guzzling SUV's)

Over time, with the addition of numerous projects, and hopefully further down the line, a push for the Downtown Relief Line, this area will be busting at the seams.

Better believe it...
 
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Condo George said:
Propose to their future spouse at Infinity lol no chance but at Maple Leaf Square, Toronto s very own Times Square ya baby ;)
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That is just crazy talk....besides, isn't Dundas Square our very own Times Square?

People can we stop with the "they have one we should have one" inferiority complex? It is ok to model/draw insparation from successful cities but to "franchise" their icons is to promote the very thing that drives most people mad about the suburbs....the insane sameness!!!!

MLSq will be cool, in its own right.....but it won't/can't/shouldn't be Times Sq II!!!
 
Automation Gallery said:
Downtown Toronto is craving for another mega-mall, away from the outdated Eatons Centre there is nothing spectacular for indoor shopping.
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Eatons Centre will be undergo a major renovation in the next couple years. Look for upcoming plans from Cadillac Fairview!

Though Eatons Centre is aging, it still brings in a lot of revenue and patrons. It is one of the busiest and most profitable malls in Canada still.
 
Translude15 said:
I would reckon that visitors to such areas are there due to the vast amount of commercialism present within the confines. Perhaps not to be "cool and hip", but rather for the sake of holding a job, or splurging some cash on some necessary, or utterly ridiculous purchases. Think about the amount of people who work within a stone's throw of Yorkville for example. They are not there to be "seen".
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If you feel people don't go to Yorkville just to be seen, then you are sorely mistaken. Whether or not they end up buying something there is beside the point for when they decided to leave the house, their sentiment was likely not: "I'm going to buy something," but merely "let's see whats going on in Yorkville, hun." Can you see someone saying: "Let's see what's going on on Bremner, hun." I can't and it's not because the area is inherently bad, it's just because there's nothing to do. Without tickets to a game, why would one end up there after 7pm on a summer night? We both know people go to Yorkville without needing to go there, so why do they? It's far to simplistic to say that they simply want to shop because there are just too many other psychological factors which inform and influence that decision. Primarily, these have to do with the space itself and at the pedestrian level, this new area is a disaster. Single use, long expanses of glass, few penetrable openings at ground level and, yes, few shops, actually make the whole area quite barren and undesirable. We can create 'future Yorkvilles' and we can do it with tall buildings and we can do it today, but our architects and planners are choosing not to simply because it's easier to parcel the land in large blocks and see what happens.

And see what happens we will...
 
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