[ehlow]

One problem a lot of the suburban malls have is that they are located AWAY from the main street, separated by a desert of asphalt called a parking lot. Pedestrians and transit users were an afterthought, forcing them to safari across during blizzards, thunderstorms, windstorms, ice-storms, and avoiding herds of automobiles to gather and trade inside isolated fortresses.

Right, look at the Sheppard line. Ikea & the condos are often pretty far from the actual street and therefore the actual subway. The same issue will face Eglinton East through Scarborough. I found it really sad that both the new condos there and Ikea offer a shuttle bus to the subway. They are right on Sheppard, yet you still have to shuttle people to the subway.

It's not just distance, but how attractive it is to walk. It's much more attractive to walk through the Annex on Bloor for 10 minutes than it is to walk through a parking lot for 10 minutes.

Alternatively, if you divert a transit line (say buses) into these giant parking lots, then you inconvenience everyone else and slow the bus down significantly.

The only way to re-urbanize these parking lots is to build on them, and re-create a street system on the parking lot. I think there are some books & a TED talk about these techniques.

 

[Tuscani01]

Right, look at the Sheppard line. Ikea & the condos are often pretty far from the actual street and therefore the actual subway. The same issue will face Eglinton East through Scarborough. I found it really sad that both the new condos there and Ikea offer a shuttle bus to the subway. They are right on Sheppard, yet you still have to shuttle people to the subway.

It's not just distance, but how attractive it is to walk. It's much more attractive to walk through the Annex on Bloor for 10 minutes than it is to walk through a parking lot for 10 minutes.

Alternatively, if you divert a transit line (say buses) into these giant parking lots, then you inconvenience everyone else and slow the bus down significantly.

The only way to re-urbanize these parking lots is to build on them, and re-create a street system on the parking lot. I think there are some books & a TED talk about these techniques.

That is exactly what is happening in MCC. The latest mall expansions are pushing the entrances out to the streets. The North expansion is filling in a parking lot and lining the mall up with Square One Drive to the North. The expansion on the South is bringing the mall up against the new main street district, which will be built on the South parking lots. The Citywalk extension from many years back pushed another section of the mall up to Duke of York Boulevard. That entrance now has plenty of pedestrian activity, as it made the mall more accessible by foot. The new expansions will follow suit.

http://www.mississaugacitycentre.ca/main-street/

 

[Wrenkin]

Right, look at the Sheppard line. Ikea & the condos are often pretty far from the actual street and therefore the actual subway. The same issue will face Eglinton East through Scarborough. I found it really sad that both the new condos there and Ikea offer a shuttle bus to the subway. They are right on Sheppard, yet you still have to shuttle people to the subway.

One thing to keep in mind re the shuttle bus is that the railway underpass at Esther Shiner Boulevard is relatively new. When Leslie first opened the fastest way to walk to the store was to exit on Sheppard, walk up the long hill toward Canadian Tire, turn left at Provost, and then head south toward the store. This was very annoying, and so the shuttle made a lot of sense. Now that the underpass exists it's much quicker to use the upper TTC exit on Old Leslie. Even so, I've no doubt customers with heavy bags still appreciate the return shuttle.

 

[ehlow]

That is exactly what is happening in MCC. The latest mall expansions are pushing the entrances out to the streets. The North expansion is filling in a parking lot and lining the mall up with Square One Drive to the North. The expansion on the South is bringing the mall up against the new main street district, which will be built on the South parking lots. The Citywalk extension from many years back pushed another section of the mall up to Duke of York Boulevard. That entrance now has plenty of pedestrian activity, as it made the mall more accessible by foot. The new expansions will follow suit.

http://www.mississaugacitycentre.ca/main-street/

Great.

By the way, it occurs to me that one example of an attempt to create a new walkable area (was tempted to say neighbourhood, but it isn't), is Shops at Don Mills at Lawrence & Don Mills.

It's more of an outdoor mall though that people still drive to. Suburbanites couldn't believe that this mall would succeed, since they can't imagine people walking outside during the winter, even though people who live in Old Toronto walk every day in the freezing cold . It seems to be doing pretty well.

 

[doady]

So all the planning errors that were made must be fixed after the fact, rather than doing it right the first time. Mississauga is the 6th largest city in Canada, and only now is the right time to talk about transit and urban development? The only way to fix MCC is to build baby build? What if the city doesn't sustain it's growth for many more decades before the area to fully develops?

A real downtown is supposed to grow organically, so that when development eventually stops it doesn't feel like a nowhere land. If downtown toronto were to stop growing today, it wouldn't be such a big deal. If it stopped growing 50 years ago, the build form would have consisted of smaller Art Deco buildings but it would still be urban. If it stopped growing 100 years ago, it would feel like a historic village today. Meanwhile, look how Scarborough Centre ended up. It has all the planning errors of MCC but without much construction. Is it a nice place to take a walk?

Mississauga should have gotten MCC right the first time, but downtowns should grow organically? I don't get what you mean.

Most downtowns are build around rail or some sort of rapid transit, which is the way it should be done. If MCC was build at Cooksville, the bus terminal and the train station would have been integrated into a seamless transit hub, like in Brampton. Otherwise, it's like putting Union station in the port lands and forcing everyone onto a bus or LRT to go downtown.

What is now Downtown Toronto was initially based around walking, horse carriages, etc. (1700s) and as it became larger it became based primarily around light rail (1800s) and then later subway/metro and commuter rail (1900s). Neither light rail or subway or commuter rail were built immediately, but only after it became more and more developed. These new transportion options in turn shaped development of what is now Downtown Toronto further. Because organic growth.

Is this a nice transit hub?

That's one of the busiest bus terminals in the GTA, and by far the busiest in the 905.

And you call this LRT a great solution? "Oops the train I boarded at Dundas wants to bypass the city's main mobility hub".

The City Centre Transit Terminal (CCTT) is for connecting to the BRT (the subject of this thread), not the LRT. Most the routes currently serving CCTT will already intersect with the LRT at other points outside CCTT. Furthermore, the LRT itself would connect with the BRT even if it did not serve CCTT. Therefore is absolutely no need for the LRT to serve CCTT (and imo it should not serve CCTT).

And yes, the LRT will serve the busiest transit corridor the 905, cutting travel times in half and carry over 30 million riders per year, over 100,000 per weekday, triple the current ridership, and at the same time spur development along the corridor, not just in MCC, but also in Port Credit, Cooksville, and Downtown Brampton, establishing all these places further as important nodes/hubs. So yes I'd say the LRT is a great solution.

So developers shouldn't build at Cooksville because there's no all-day two-way service (for now), but it's ok to build at MCC where there's no rail service at all?

I never said they should or shouldn't develop at Cooksville. The developers are already allowed to develop high density at Cooksville and that's the way it should be. The problem is there is just not enough incentive to do so, marketwise. The land value and demand at Cooksville is much lower than at MCC.

A high-rise office building was actually demolished in Cooksville recently. That's how bad it is. With all day, two-way GO Train, plus light rail along Hurontario and Dundas, things might be different in Cooksville (the City is currently conducting a study for Dundas LRT).

Fair enough, but MCC is supposed to be their downtown, yet little former villages like Streetsville are more loveable than MCC. How good would it be if NYCC was more attractive than downtown Toronto?

Then that would mean NYCC is a tremendous success. Streetsville and Port Credit are more analogous to downtown Toronto than NYCC, aren't they? Streetsville and Port Credit are the older, established downtowns, like Downtown Toronto.

 

[TOareaFan]

I often find myself quite impressed with what is happening at MCC. It is a very modern interpretation of a city downtown.

That said, if someone has a very narrow view of what an urban setting is, and that is that it must look like the core of older cities...with narrow streets and a bit of mix between mid and high rise and commercial and residential and where every address can be walked too.....well that is an unreasonable expectation (IMO) of a downtown that developed in the latter half of the 20th century in a city that only became a city in the latter half of the 20th century in what was, at its beginning, (with no disrespect intended) nothing more than a bedroom suburb of a larger city made up of a collection of smaller bedroom suburbs to that city.

Taken in that context, it is quite remarkable how MCC has grown and developed.

 

[accura407]

I honestly believe MCC has so much more potential ahead of it. It will be an awesome downtown center!
There is so much more developable land, there is a street grid either present or soon to be built under future plans.

The transitway is almost done. An LRT will be built within a few years. High density towers are all over the place without a single rapid transit link.

A major transportation corridor is adjacent to MCC that can bring in people from all over. There has been talk of a GO line tunnel spur from the CP line to Square One.

For people to just come and say MCC is a failure is just ridiculous. SCC is a write off but MCC is going to be a winner and will be the next downtown in the GTA. Guarenteed.

 

[Platform 27]

An LRT will be built within a few years.

An LRT that there isn't yet a penny in confirmed funding for.

There has been talk of a GO line tunnel spur from the CP line to Square One.

Talk, as in some banter on forums like this one and, if I remember correctly, an experimental "what if..." doodle on some very early Metrolinx conceptual work that never got incorporated into the final plan. A tunnelled GO spur exists precisely nowhere as an official proposal.

Guarenteed.

 

[doady]

An LRT that there isn't yet a penny in confirmed funding for.

Millions of dollars have already been spent in the study and planning and design of the LRT. And I am pretty sure that both Mississauga and Brampton are committed to funding at least part of the cost for construction of the LRT, otherwise they wouldn't be pushing for it to be built.

As for Milton spur, that's a bad idea anyways. It's not like the corridor has a lot of space and it would interfere with Erindale and Cooksville stations a lot, which are the two busiest stations on the line (other than Union of course). Splitting the service would also complicate the transfer to LRT.

Mississauga Transitway will provide the GO bus connection. If any new GO rail corridor is built to MCC, that is where it should go.

 

[Dan416]

If salsa hates MCC so much, he must despise VCC/VMC.

 

[innsertnamehere]

There isn't much of a vcc yet, only a single half built condo and a hole for the future subway stop. Construction on the office building started last month though.

 

[Dan416]

There isn't much of a vcc yet, only a single half built condo and a hole for the future subway stop. Construction on the office building started last month though.

That's kind of my point. There's nothing there but they're getting a subway stop.

 

[doady]

I guess if they build subway to Steeles they might as well build to Highway 7 too. It is not actually a bad idea to have proper hub in York Region. Better location than Steeles or York U at least. The future 407 Transitway will be there too. And a lot of those buses will go to Square One too.

MCC will be served by a regional BRT connection to VCC, York U, Langstaff Gateway, Markham Centre, and more, thanks to this transitway. Even with GO Trains, MCC is still going to be an important hub for GO Transit. It arguably already sort of is.

 

[drum118]

From what I have been told, Hydro One want the current land being used by TTC as a kiss & ride for a new sub station since its their land in the first place as well they have no more room on the south side for it.

They want to protect all their remaining land for future needs. Not doing so, means darkness with no power for future development.

That being the case, support Hydro One position not building the new gateway hub there as plan and move it back to where it was originally to be at Cloverdale.

Supported the Vice Chair at the time in 2005 and still do on building the extension to the BD to take the current line over to Cloverdale area regardless if its $600m or $800m, as everyone win at the end of the day once it is built. If that is the case, 10-15 years before it happens.

 

[gweed123]

From what I have been told, Hydro One want the current land being used by TTC as a kiss & ride for a new sub station since its their land in the first place as well they have no more room on the south side for it.

They want to protect all their remaining land for future needs. Not doing so, means darkness with no power for future development.

That being the case, support Hydro One position not building the new gateway hub there as plan and move it back to where it was originally to be at Cloverdale.

Supported the Vice Chair at the time in 2005 and still do on building the extension to the BD to take the current line over to Cloverdale area regardless if its $600m or $800m, as everyone win at the end of the day once it is built. If that is the case, 10-15 years before it happens.

That's bad news for anyone hoping to build inexpensive transit ROWs through hydro corridors. That just took a lot of low-cost options off the table.

But yes, hopefully with an expansion of the Kipling complex off the table, the TTC/GO/MiWay will consider an integrated hub at Honeydale/Cloverdale. Honeydale would be preferable since it could be integrated with a new GO station (coupled with the abandonment of Kipling GO, obviously).