Tewder said:
I don't understand the desire for a public square or plaza here. Yonge and Bloor is an instersection, and a very busy and dense one at that. Why not keep it that way?? Why not work to build strong streetwalls here?? There are plenty of cozy nooks in Yorkville only a 2 minute walk away. I just don't see a corporate-designed plaza here being that inviting. Bloor and Yonge should be retail central!
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Part of the idea is that given how busy this intersection already is, it's reasonable to provide space for people relax and provide a central meeting point. Not everyone wants to spend time looking for obscure bits of public space in some neighbourhood. Given how vibrant and dense the area is already, it doesn't seem to really need more density to be successful.
 
Tewder said:
I don't understand the desire for a public square or plaza here. Yonge and Bloor is an instersection, and a very busy and dense one at that. Why not keep it that way?? Why not work to build strong streetwalls here?? There are plenty of cozy nooks in Yorkville only a 2 minute walk away. I just don't see a corporate-designed plaza here being that inviting. Bloor and Yonge should be retail central!

As for tall... yes, bring it on! Toronto needs to show optimism and confidence and building super tall in this economy while the rest of the world is in economic and financial limbo will be a powerful message. Toronto should stake its claim now that we are stable and prosperous and growing. We should definitely be aiming high here. Aren't we all a little tired of the endless excuses and false modesty that so often facilitate Canadian mediocrity?
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Completely agree with most of it, except the part about Canadian mediocrity. The reason we don't have supertalls is more to do with risk aversion than anything else.

It's a shame that one of the few times someone has dared to go bold (1BE) it has failed.
 
Aren't we all a little tired of the endless excuses and false modesty that so often facilitate Canadian mediocrity?
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Actually, I grow tired of the generalizations towards Canadians based on a bunch of condominiums and a couple pension fund funded office towers. Wasn't miketoronto enough?

We may not have built a landmark tower during this boom (ex. Aqua which, BTW, is far from the norm in Chicago) but, it's hardly something to obsess about.
 
In addition, it's not Toronto or Canadians in general building this tower, its GG. GG has to do what makes sense for it. No matter what anyone else thinks, if a supertall doesn't work for GG, it won't build one. Risk aversion by GG may make it not want to build a supertalll, but that would be fine by me. I'd rather see a successful tower of a reasonable height actually constructed than see some pie in the sky tower never get built. If someone doesn't like that, then offer to buy the land from GG and build it yourself.

Toronto's condo market is still going strong and Canada's banks (who fund the construction) are still in good shape. This really can't be said for many other places in the world. No one else in the world outside Canada is looking at Canada and Toronto as places of mediocrity. Right now the prevailing view outside of Canada is that we've got things pretty well right on the real estate and banking fronts.
 
maestro said:
it's hardly something to obsess about.
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This is the internet. People love to whine and complain about everything. I find that people talking in real life seem to be quite impressed with all the construction and new developments in the city. They see it as a sign of the city getting stronger and becoming more important.
Maybe I just hang out with fun people though.
 
maestro said:
Actually, I grow tired of the generalizations towards Canadians based on a bunch of condominiums and a couple pension fund funded office towers. Wasn't miketoronto enough?
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That's more than disingenuous. There are a thousand threads here in which many of us here have expressed sincere disappointment in the outcomes of many a development project, and frustration with the all too common 'wasted opportunity' or 'cheapening' that we see time and time again. Yonge and Bloor is not just one of a "bunch of condos', there is more significance here and you know it...


ladyscraper said:
This is the internet. People love to whine and complain about everything. I find that people talking in real life seem to be quite impressed with all the construction and new developments in the city. They see it as a sign of the city getting stronger and becoming more important.
Maybe I just hang out with fun people though.
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I'm sure you're all a jolly bunch but mindless cheerleading about crappy or mediocre projects is hardly constructive and doesn't imply that you *love* Toronto more than others...

Previous generations believed in Toronto and demanded more. They didn't excuse bad design and development because they believed themselves inferior to 'Chicago' or anywhere else. This is not how NPS was designed and built, or the CN Tower etc. This is a cultural mood and this does influence standards of what will be accepted or not. I'd like to see us get back to the optimism and ambition of previous generations, and all the more so given how booming, prosperous and priviledged Toronto is relative to many other economys right now.
 
tewder said:
i'm sure you're all a jolly bunch but mindless cheerleading about crappy or mediocre projects is hardly constructive and doesn't imply that you *love* toronto more than others...

Previous generations believed in toronto and demanded more. They didn't excuse bad design and development because they believed themselves inferior to 'chicago' or anywhere else. This is not how nps was designed and built, or the cn tower etc. This is a cultural mood and this does influence standards of what will be accepted or not. I'd like to see us get back to the optimism and ambition of previous generations, and all the more so given how booming, prosperous and priviledged toronto is relative to many other economys right now.
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A-Friggin'-Men!
 
That's more than disingenuous. There are a thousand threads here in which many of us here have expressed sincere disappointment in the outcomes of many a development project, and frustration with the all too common 'wasted opportunity' or 'cheapening' that we see time and time again. Yonge and Bloor is not just one of a "bunch of condos', there is more significance here and you know it
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Many is more like a select few and now not only does their sincere disappointment surround everything Toronto but all of Canada. I also see you're already gearing up to express your thoroughly disappointment once the renderings for One Bloor are released. May I ask? Have you already written a rough draft for your next enjoyably descriptive rant? Also, how much more significant is Yonge and Bloor to a dozen other locales including, a forum favourite, the foot of Jarvis? I realize it's a public transportation hub however, that mostly reflects our tiny subway system.

I'm sure you're all a jolly bunch but mindless cheerleading about crappy or mediocre projects is hardly constructive and doesn't imply that you *love* Toronto more than others
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The irony is you have your blinders on so tight that you can't see that mindless cheerleading and constant bereting both have zero constructive value. The notion that previous generations demanded more because of a few landmark cultural projects is shocking to say the least. I wonder if you even get out of your basement.
 
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Roy G Biv said:
That's ok. It's a pretty important and relevant point that kind of got lost in the most recent back-and-forth.
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^I thought this is what we were going back and forth about:)

Does anybody have an idea what kind of height this floor count would translate to? I'm not a big one for counting floors around here but I do maintain that Yonge and Bloor should be tall... and spectacular of course!
 
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maestro said:
Many is more like a select few and now not only does their sincere disappointment surround everything Toronto but all of Canada. I also see you're already gearing up to express your thoroughly disappointment once the renderings for One Bloor are released. May I ask? Have you already written a rough draft for your next enjoyably descriptive rant? Also, how much more significant is Yonge and Bloor to a dozen other locales including, a forum favourite, the foot of Jarvis? I realize it's a public transportation hub however, that mostly reflects our tiny subway system.
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I would beg to differ on all your points, but will promise you suitable delirious praise should anything other than a mid-sized glassy box appear in new renderings. How nice for you though to be so confident in the knowledge that anything that could possibly be built will meet your comfortable lack of expectations.


maestro said:
The irony is you have your blinders on so tight that you can't see that mindless cheerleading and constant bereting both have zero constructive value.
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... and nor does your constant whining that other posters are too negative for your personal liking. Harassing others without offering up anything substantive by way of debate hardly contributes to the dialogue here. Keep cheering though it makes us all so happy.
 
Hey, all: If we don't want this series of posts deleted like a recent series was deleted, let's be easy on the people and tough on the issues. The issue we're discussing right now is height (and maybe design, etc., etc.). Let's not make the people making comments about height (and design, etc.) the issue. :)
 
Oliver Tweed said:
Completely agree with most of it, except the part about Canadian mediocrity. The reason we don't have supertalls is more to do with risk aversion than anything else.

It's a shame that one of the few times someone has dared to go bold (1BE) it has failed.
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1 BE wasn't really a "supertall" anyway. Just down the street Aura will be breaking ground next year, further down there's Trump which is U/C and further south yet will be ICE that will also begin next year. They are fairly close to what 1 BE would have been and hopefully better looking buildings.
 
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dt_toronto_geek said:
1 BE wasn't really a "supertall" anyway. Just down the street Aura will be breaking ground next year, further down there's Trump which is U/C and further south yet will be ICE that will also begin next year. They are pretty close to what 1 BE would have been.
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1BE wasn't a supertall but it would still have dwarfed the projects you mention by a good amount. It was almost the height of FCP, including the razorblade-spire.
 
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