[afransen]

Sounds like you're lobbying for the extension. I'm not opposed, you don't have to convince me. The argument that OL won't have sufficient capacity to permit an extension to Markham supposes that OL becomes saturated for some portion of its length. I'm going to suppose that bottleneck is between Line 2 and Union. Thus capacity won't be a problem for riders going to Sheppard or Eglinton. If they are going to Union, GO will be faster (trip time on OL would be an hour, GO is currently 41 minutes with current diesel locos) . Fare integration will happen and it's a bad reason to spend billions on duplicate hardware. Riders can transfer at East Harbour to access OL stations.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Sounds like you're lobbying for the extension. I'm not opposed, you don't have to convince me. The argument that OL won't have sufficient capacity to permit an extension to Markham supposes that OL becomes saturated for some portion of its length. I'm going to suppose that bottleneck is between Line 2 and Union. Thus capacity won't be a problem for riders going to Sheppard or Eglinton. If they are going to Union, GO will be faster (trip time on OL would be an hour, GO is currently 41 minutes with current diesel locos) . Fare integration will happen and it's a bad reason to spend billions on duplicate hardware. Riders can transfer at East Harbour to access OL stations.

The bottleneck is going to be at Moss Park and Queen stations. If folks are transferring from GO at East Harbour then they'll be joining the most crowded section of the OL further straining the capacity of the line.

 

[afransen]

Maybe an argument for that future College/Gerrard subway!

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or during rush hour short turn some trains at East Harbour.

 

[44 North]

The bottleneck is going to be at Moss Park and Queen stations. If folks are transferring from GO at East Harbour then they'll be joining the most crowded section of the OL further straining the capacity of the line.

The large number of alightings at Exhibition is somewhat surprising. Where are they all going? If it's to use w/b GO then one wonders if GO instead had LSE/LSW as a single through service, would OL see more alightings at East Harbour instead.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Sounds like you're lobbying for the extension. I'm not opposed, you don't have to convince me. The argument that OL won't have sufficient capacity to permit an extension to Markham supposes that OL becomes saturated for some portion of its length. I'm going to suppose that bottleneck is between Line 2 and Union. Thus capacity won't be a problem for riders going to Sheppard or Eglinton. If they are going to Union, GO will be faster (trip time on OL would be an hour, GO is currently 41 minutes with current diesel locos) . Fare integration will happen and it's a bad reason to spend billions on duplicate hardware. Riders can transfer at East Harbour to access OL stations.

The Ontario Line Business Case presumes that the line would move at about 36 km/h. Markham Town Centre to Downtown Toronto is roughly 36 km, which translates to a travel time of roughly 45 minutes. That should more or less be the same as RER.

Also please keep in mind that Markham is a big place, and which option is faster will really depend on where they're coming from and where they're going to.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The large number of alightings at Exhibition is somewhat surprising. Where are they all going? If it's to use w/b GO then one wonders if GO instead had LSE/LSW as a single through service, would OL see more alightings at East Harbour instead.

Living under a rock?

Go to link.

The bigger picture of what the station on Atlantic Ave. will look like, including new condos above. Rendering from the Province of Ontario.

The station entrance on Dufferin St. will also include a housing development. Rendering from the Province of Ontario.

The most dramatic visual difference will be the mega developments that will be part and parcel of the station structures, providing thousands of new housing units, commercial and public space surrounding the transit hubs.

For Exhibition Station, the route's westernmost terminus and an existing GO Station, some massive new buildings will be constructed for subway entrances on Atlantic Ave., Jefferson Ave. and Dufferin St. in Liberty Village.

The new transit project has provided an excuse for these massive redevelopments, which will help to accommodate the influx of residents to the areas surrounding each station while also upgrading the public realm in general.

The province passed a specific act in July 2020 just to be able to build these entire new communities, which it hopes will bring more jobs to these neighbourhoods and inspire greater use of public transportation.

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, it looks like there's enough room to accommodate the grade change. However the tight curve necessary to from a southern to an east-west to a north-south alignment concerns me.

If you don't assume that there is no curve on the portal west of Exhibition, then it becomes easier to to get up Dufferin.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Sounds like you're lobbying for the extension. I'm not opposed, you don't have to convince me. The argument that OL won't have sufficient capacity to permit an extension to Markham supposes that OL becomes saturated for some portion of its length. I'm going to suppose that bottleneck is between Line 2 and Union. Thus capacity won't be a problem for riders going to Sheppard or Eglinton. If they are going to Union, GO will be faster (trip time on OL would be an hour, GO is currently 41 minutes with current diesel locos) . Fare integration will happen and it's a bad reason to spend billions on duplicate hardware. Riders can transfer at East Harbour to access OL stations.

The bottleneck is going to be at Moss Park and Queen stations. If folks are transferring from GO at East Harbour then they'll be joining the most crowded section of the OL further straining the capacity of the line.


View attachment 393233

The extension to Sheppard would almost certainly push the Ontario Line towards 25,000 pphpd, and Markham would push it dangerously close to 30,000. I don't necessarily view this as the end of the world though. The downstream impacts of a Markham extension is that RER passengers would no longer bother transferring to the Ontario Line at East Harbour. These people are already on a comfortable GO train, so they're not going to go out of their way to squeeze onto a crowded Ontario Line train. However this does mean that Union would have to handle thousands more passengers at peak hour, so we'd still have to find a long term solution to the capacity crunch.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Maybe an argument for that future College/Gerrard subway!

My preference has been Dundas, but the specifics don't matter right now.

One of the more "out there" ideas to deal with the capacity crunch is to decouple the portion of Line 2 east of Victoria Park from the rest of Line 2, and funnel those passengers directly into the core of the city via a new Downtown line. This line would then travel into Downtown, maybe via Dundas or College, and then perhaps travel into Etobicoke on its west end.

This would dramatically reduce the ridership of Line 2, and thus the number of transfers at Pape and Bloor-Yonge stations. I'd also argue that Scarborough residents would find this line more useful than Line 2, as it would bring them directly into the core of the city without any transfers.

If executed correctly, this conversion could be done with minimal service disruptions (similar conversions have taken place in other cities).

After the conversion, Line 2 and the new Downtown line would look something like this:

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The large number of alightings at Exhibition is somewhat surprising. Where are they all going? If it's to use w/b GO then one wonders if GO instead had LSE/LSW as a single through service, would OL see more alightings at East Harbour instead.

Living under a rock?

Go to link.

The bigger picture of what the station on Atlantic Ave. will look like, including new condos above. Rendering from the Province of Ontario.

The station entrance on Dufferin St. will also include a housing development. Rendering from the Province of Ontario.

Why would a primarily residential development produce a large number of AM peak hour alightments at Exhibiton?

 

[Tristen]

The Ontario Line Business Case presumes that the line would move at about 36 km/h. Markham Town Centre to Downtown Toronto is roughly 36 km, which translates to a travel time of roughly 45 minutes. That should more or less be the same as RER

How does 36km/h on 36km translates to roughly 45 mins? 36km/(36km/h)=1h

Also, from the GO Expansion Business Case, it's only 25-27mins from Unionville to Union.

 

[MrGoose]

My preference has been Dundas, but the specifics don't matter right now.

One of the more "out there" ideas to deal with the capacity crunch is to decouple the portion of Line 2 east of Victoria Park from the rest of Line 2, and funnel those passengers directly into the core of the city via a new Downtown line. This line would then travel into Downtown, maybe via Dundas or College, and then perhaps travel into Etobicoke on its west end.

This would dramatically reduce the ridership of Line 2, and thus the number of transfers at Pape and Bloor-Yonge stations. I'd also argue that Scarborough residents would find this line more useful than Line 2, as it would bring them directly into the core of the city without any transfers.

If executed correctly, this conversion could be done with minimal service disruptions (similar conversions have taken place in other cities).

After the conversion, Line 2 and the new Downtown line would look something like this:
View attachment 393266

What I like about this idea, is that you can now extend Line 2 to Sherway Gardens in addition to relieving pressure on Bloor Yonge.

 

[Phil P]

Yeah, it looks like there's enough room to accommodate the grade change. However the tight curve necessary to from a southern to an east-west to a north-south alignment concerns me.

It's my understanding that trains typically don't perform well when they have to simultaneously change grades and make tight curves.

But you know what... the Dufferin tunnel doesn't have to be directly under Dufferin Street at all. If the line immediately dives underground after Exhibition, the line could gradually curve to the north and run in a tunnel maybe 50 to 100 metres west of Dufferin. That would mean that King/Dufferin Station would be just slightly west of Dufferin, but that's largely inconsequential. I'd imagine that the line would then gradually shift east, such that Queen/Dufferin Station would be right under Queen.

Excuse the very crudely drawn map, but it would look something like this (station boxes in black, and the portal in blue):

View attachment 393118

Hopefully the Ontario Line's "shorter" train cars would allow is to make such a tight turn.

Better to extend the Ontario Line west and northwest to Kipling Station as has recently been suggested as an option by the Ontario Government

 

[Phil P]

My preference has been Dundas, but the specifics don't matter right now.

One of the more "out there" ideas to deal with the capacity crunch is to decouple the portion of Line 2 east of Victoria Park from the rest of Line 2, and funnel those passengers directly into the core of the city via a new Downtown line. This line would then travel into Downtown, maybe via Dundas or College, and then perhaps travel into Etobicoke on its west end.

This would dramatically reduce the ridership of Line 2, and thus the number of transfers at Pape and Bloor-Yonge stations. I'd also argue that Scarborough residents would find this line more useful than Line 2, as it would bring them directly into the core of the city without any transfers.

If executed correctly, this conversion could be done with minimal service disruptions (similar conversions have taken place in other cities).

After the conversion, Line 2 and the new Downtown line would look something like this:
View attachment 393266

Great idea!