dowlingm said:
The TTC has lots of people riding the system when they were sitting next to people who had a virus that could kill them via airborne transmission. If you wanted a demonstration of how many people in Toronto have to take their chances even with some personal risk because their circumstances and employment options left no choice, 2020 was a good time to observe it.

While this recent incident was awful, the time to prevent it was before the individual boarded the train - reactive measures like cameras and cops and onboard drivers/guards might minimize the outcome, but it is unlikely to prevent it. The goal should be a city administration that tries to help all its residents and reduce stress especially when people are obliged to be packed in close proximity. What we have is a city which, for example, is reducing the distance between shelter beds to save money and avoid adding shelter beds in neighbourhoods where residents cry at the thought.
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This 100%. If we want safer cities we need more investment in care for the mentally ill and the homeless as well as a justice system that doesn't just practically let dangerous people go all the time. However, I would say cameras and security guards at stations are probably not the worst idea either.
 

Queen and King streetcars show Toronto why the subway is the better way: it work​


An article by Shawn Micalef in the Star about transit - streetcars vs. subway: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...hy-the-subway-is-the-better-way-it-works.html


In one paragraph he notes that there has been some talk of NOT having the Ontario Line go west of Osgoode. Has there been any talk of that possibility??

"One nuance that has floated up are questions about whether or not the Ontario Line should cross west of downtown and end at Exhibition Place. We can and should quibble about station placement and other details but the argument that some of the densest places in Canada, namely Liberty Village and the neighbourhood around King and Bathurst, shouldn’t have a subway is troubling."
 
CharmAlarm said:
In one paragraph he notes that there has been some talk of NOT having the Ontario Line go west of Osgoode. Has there been any talk of that possibility??

"One nuance that has floated up are questions about whether or not the Ontario Line should cross west of downtown and end at Exhibition Place. We can and should quibble about station placement and other details but the argument that some of the densest places in Canada, namely Liberty Village and the neighbourhood around King and Bathurst, shouldn’t have a subway is troubling."
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Within government I have not heard of this. Keep in mind, Mx has already acquired property for the stations/access.

That said, there is a case to be made for questioning the near-term choice to connection go Exhibition GO.

picard102 said:
Miller seems to be making the case that if the route has a streetcar already, that it doesn't need the OL.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1599215530895818752
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The existing streetcar is not the alternative, whatever Mr. Miller muses.

But there is a case to be made for cutting back, it goes like this:

Exhibition GO Station already has a train that goes from Liberty Village to downtown.
That station will soon see service every 15M or better almost all day, 7 days per week, how many more trains does it require?

***

A new GO Station is being built to serve this area at King, better serving the northern end of the community in particular, and this station too is set to have 7-day a week, 15M service.
So that's essentially 2 subway-type services into downtown from this community.
The price for both services is already $3.70 (to Union) only marginally more than TTC, subject to GO-Co-pay, there is no reason this could not be a viable alternative to the subway for LV residents.

***

Additionally, the area is due to get the West Waterfront LRT (already at Exhibition GO) but due to be extended to Dufferin Gate,.

***

That's a lot of mass transit, on top of which, improvements to the King Corridor, due to be made permanent in 2024 and enhanced at that time, should result in a better streetcar experience to DT (in theory).

Additional streetcars will also be delivered, in full, by 2025, further offering the opportunity for more service.

***

The real reason for the Exhibition extension of the O/L is to allow GO to offload passengers before Union.
I'm not actually convinced that this will be particularly successful, particularly on a cost per rider diverted basis.

***

That's not to suggest that I would cut the O/L back to Yonge.

I think the case is very strong to take it to the University arm of Line 1, for convenience, for redudency and to avoid digging this area up again in the near term.

The case for going west to Spadina and Bathurst is also strong, just not as strong.

The Bathurst to Exhbition link is the weak point I would argue. That said we're very far into the process to cut any of these, and to shift the start point of the tunnels in the west, further east, requires a new entry/exit shaft for the boring machines, for which there is no convenient, planned spot.
 
Sewer relocation map in this.

www.thestar.com

‘They’re building next to babies’: Metrolinx under fire from parents for ‘scattershot’ approach to construction safety at Toronto school

Early work on the Ontario Line at Pape Junior School has nearby parents wondering if Metrolinx has a plan to protect their kids.
www.thestar.com www.thestar.com

1670860946379.png
 
Northern Light said:
Within government I have not heard of this. Keep in mind, Mx has already acquired property for the stations/access.

That said, there is a case to be made for questioning the near-term choice to connection go Exhibition GO.



The existing streetcar is not the alternative, whatever Mr. Miller muses.

But there is a case to be made for cutting back, it goes like this:

Exhibition GO Station already has a train that goes from Liberty Village to downtown.
That station will soon see service every 15M or better almost all day, 7 days per week, how many more trains does it require?

***

A new GO Station is being built to serve this area at King, better serving the northern end of the community in particular, and this station too is set to have 7-day a week, 15M service.
So that's essentially 2 subway-type services into downtown from this community.
The price for both services is already $3.70 (to Union) only marginally more than TTC, subject to GO-Co-pay, there is no reason this could not be a viable alternative to the subway for LV residents.

***

Additionally, the area is due to get the West Waterfront LRT (already at Exhibition GO) but due to be extended to Dufferin Gate,.

***

That's a lot of mass transit, on top of which, improvements to the King Corridor, due to be made permanent in 2024 and enhanced at that time, should result in a better streetcar experience to DT (in theory).

Additional streetcars will also be delivered, in full, by 2025, further offering the opportunity for more service.

***

The real reason for the Exhibition extension of the O/L is to allow GO to offload passengers before Union.
I'm not actually convinced that this will be particularly successful, particularly on a cost per rider diverted basis.

***

That's not to suggest that I would cut the O/L back to Yonge.

I think the case is very strong to take it to the University arm of Line 1, for convenience, for redudency and to avoid digging this area up again in the near term.

The case for going west to Spadina and Bathurst is also strong, just not as strong.

The Bathurst to Exhbition link is the weak point I would argue. That said we're very far into the process to cut any of these, and to shift the start point of the tunnels in the west, further east, requires a new entry/exit shaft for the boring machines, for which there is no convenient, planned spot.
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i too used to be skeptical of the exhibition detour but ive came around to it.
i think youre underestimating the factor non-centralized transit hubs have.

like east harbour exhibition will be a huge transfer point. its going to offload a ton of riders from union GO which means we wont need to worry about it capacity for years, even after the platform upgrades. remember were going to be running GO trains like at 2 minute intervals out of union right after go expansion
you cant just look at financials as the only way to judge whether a transit project is good

king west/spadina while having that spadina go station its only going to serve the barrie line.

king liberty go station is only serving the kitchener line,

in the context of just the ontario line the decision to route it to exhibition makes sense, can we change the above go stations to serve all lines? sure but thats a question for the GO expansion project not the ontario line. We really should change those though
 
TRONto said:
I'll assume most of the people on the forum are men and the perspective of the other 50% of the population is missing.

I was at a dinner party recently with mostly women and the topic of the subway travel came up. Many of the women mentioned how they fear taking the subway and urged the others not to take the subway that night unless they could most of their trip accompanied. Most of them didn't know about the high park stabbing when the discussion started. This isn't the first time I have heard this type of talk either.

As also recently mentioned in the blogto article about the Tapei(?) subway system, the female author positively noted the large security presence at the stations. Regardless of the capability of the 'security theatre', the presence is important for transit ridership on the TTC.
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I think it would be more useful to have security staff on platforms, as you can often be nearly by yourself there, and sightlines are such that security staff can be visible and effect a presence. Even having staff on every train is unlikely to provide much sense of security unless they are continually walking up and down the length of the train, and visibility is not great.

I guess you could have desginated 'security cars' where those who felt uncomfortable could travel and be near to security. I am just unconvinced that the mere presence of security would do much to help matters when there seems to be indifference on the part of the TTC to actually act on security incidents unless they are severe.
 
Terminating OL before Exhibition doesn't make much sense when one contemplates what that would mean for future extensions. At least terminating at Exhibition GO provides additional connectivity and makes extensions westward feasible without having to build a launch pit in the heart of downtown.
 
picard102 said:
That's essentially the same thing though, and he's wrong either way.
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Is he?

Is this corridor most in need of transit improvement?

I don't think it should be an either-or scenario, but unfortunately that's what often happens when it comes to transit plans.
 
picard102 said:
Miller seems to be making the case that if the route has a streetcar already, that it doesn't need the OL.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1599215530895818752
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1599448809771192320

It gets worse.

First, for whatever reason David Miller seems to have caught on to this idea that the western extension to Exhibition costs $10B? My guess is that he got this from the recently announced total cost of $20B, and deducted the original cost of the DRL of $10B, and attributed the increase in cost to the western extension (reminder, the capital cost of the Ontario Line is still at $12B, so he's suggesting that University to Exh accounts for 5/6 of the project's budget)

Ignoring that, the alternatives to projects he gives is just absurd.

Now consider those who rely on the 54 Lawrence Bus
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You mean the people who are living 2km north of THE EGLINTON LINE, who only need to take a short bus to travel on another $10B transit line that YOU set into motion?

Or attend Centennial or UofT Scarborough. Where should rapid transit go first?
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I guess he isn't aware that the DSBRT is under construction, and will link those up to the SSE, or that those post-sec institutions are a short bus ride away from Guildwood GO, or that we're also planning an LRT line to connect them to Guildwood GO as well.


EDIT: Before someone says that I'm misinterpreting him suggesting that the $10B is the cost of the OL west of University, here is a tweet where he says exactly that:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1602094472958984193
Overall, this has been a narrative pushed by people like Adam Vaughan and David Miller since the increase in project cost was announced a few weeks ago.
 
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Miller is wrong because he glosses over one key fact - this city cannot run a streetcar line period. They don’t offer priority signals, they don’t remove the ridiculously close stops, they don’t remove parking on streetcar routes to give it a dedicated ROW (King/Queen/Dundas/College/Bathurst). Simple operational changes could have made streetcars faster and more convenient to get around.

The second issue is one of speed and cross city travel. Even if streetcar operations could be made faster they serve a local market. The OL and subways in general serve a bigger market which is folks going long and medium distances of 5-10+km. On that distance the subways are the best solution. The OL much like the relief line needed to be built decades ago to support the density downtown without the need for cars. The fact that Toronto downtown is still very very car reliant is because our downtown transit services are so poor. Our one subway loop gets bogged down by any delays and cripples movement out of the core. There is no redundancy or excess capacity on the system to be absorbed.

So could the money on OL west of University be better spent in the suburbs - I say absolutely NOT. The downtown core needs the investment much more. The suburbs can easily make do with bus rapid transit and some dedicated lanes. A simpler version of YRT Viva would go a long way for most of Scarborough and Etobicoke. There isn’t much density to justify rail based services and the large distances makes it expensive. Even the much talked about Eglinton East LRT wont provide much faster or better service than the buses it will replace. The main issue in suburbs is speed and service reliability. They can be fixed with ROWs for buses. The core where the population has boomed and needs to be made car independent is where the transit dollars should be placed.
 
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