GenerationW
Senior Member
Too late for the OL to be stopped, but it isn't the provincial government or a "professional managerial class" that has blocked a relief line for decades since Mel Lastman revived the idea in 1983.
- Thread starter JasonParis
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Allandale25
Senior Member
desperateAmbassador
New Member
I may be jaded, but is this whole ordeal not just a perfect encapsulation of why it takes so much time and money to build anything in North America?
How much ink has been spilled over 11 trees in a city of millions? How many lawyers have already made their year-end bonuses litigating this whole ordeal.
This city is in a transit crisis and a few proverbial eggs need to be broken to make this long overdue omelette. Yet there's a whole cottage industry of outrage-profiteers and bad faith journalists that filled two news cycles and what will inevitably be hundreds of thousands of $ in legal fees over an issue that, in the fullness of time: DOES NOT MATTER.
This line will get built, and when it does, the beautiful trees we had to cut down to do it will be a distant memory - and thats OK, it comes with the territory, trade-offs happen.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but this whole thing is a nothing burger, and the only thing it's accomplished is further discouraging me that we'll ever solve the problem of why infrastructure is so hard to build anymore.
Northern Light
Superstar
You are jaded; but rightly so.
However, this particular issue and the manner of its litigation isn't particularly typical in North America, nor will it end up representing a material cost on the project, there's a long list of other reasons for iordinate costs here (though note, we're nowhere near as bad as NYC, amongst other places); that have been addressed in detail elsewhere.
Try this for a start: https://transitcosts.com/transit-costs-study-final-report/#in_1_4
Too many; but in fairness, that's mostly on Mx for being secretive, opaque, dishonest, in general, in no way limited to this project. The trade-offs for this station and others were never publicly disclosed, people never got a chance to weigh in, and then this design was dropped in at the last moment as ' a fait compli'.
A nasty reaction was to be expected from such behavior. Had the merits/challenges at any given site been discussed in the open, this likely never unfolds as it has.
I'm one of those pragmatic enough to discuss removing the trees, I'm less enthused about ripping out heritage fencing and placing a non-complimentary structure on the grounds; but that too could be fairly discussed. However, I can't agree that breaking eggs is just fine.
This city has lost far too much heritage and far too many trees on just that premise.........what's one more?
You are.
Its not, its trees, its heritage, its public realm and its a well designed for riders transit station (which this is not)
Read the link I posted up top and we'll discuss more!
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goreckm
Active Member
I think there needs to be a balance that is struck for sure. We don't want to become like China either, where we just draw lines on a map, and bulldoze through everything in it's path without any regard. I think the ultimate need here is to be more transparent. Metrolinx has been keeping the plans for the OL close to their chest, where the plans could have been known ahead of time, and people would have been able to provide input earlier. Agreed that the trees should not stand in the way of building this line, but also, if there was a way to reconfigure the station (not reverting to the ridiculous combined City Hall station idea), that would have been ideal.
crs1026
Superstar
It’s. Not. About. A. Small. Number. Of. Trees.
The trees simply demarcate the final, can’t-unring-the-bell “point of no return” on a project that has released lots of surprises since the chainsaws arrived.
Not many people appreciated that the principal documents committing ML to the Osgoode design were signed last November. Ml did not make it clear that consultation had irrevocably ended. Nor did Ml announce that it was making that commitment, notwithstanding that it had an outstanding study that they had agreed to undertake with the City.
The “trees are ‘t special and can be replaced” argument fell apart a week ago when ML disclosed the fact that they cannot be regrown (because of what’s being built underneath). That speaks volumes about how little ML cares about conserving the heritage value of the site. I can accept the need to cut down trees if there are replacements….. but that can never happen. The site will never be the same.
The reality is that the Minister has the legal authority to declare that a site no longer has heritage value. That doesn’t mean they should do that. The heritage value of the site (with or without the current trees) is indisputable and includes it being conserved to a certain standard. The whole point of conserving heritage is - to retain it for the future.
- Paul
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
In Rome, when they discover ancient ruins while building their metro stations, they incorporate the ruins in the design of that stations. Trees not mentioned.
T3G
Senior Member
Your point about the non complimentary structure is an interesting one. It's not really something I'd thought of before but on balance you're right, if we must alter the Osgoode site so it would be nice if they at least tried to design the station building in such a way that it matches the hall.
The Battery Park Control House in New York is one of my favourite pieces of subway architecture. It is so much more memorable than any other subway entrance that comes to mind.
We can build new buildings in the style of the old... Randall Residences in Oakville proves that.
The Randall Residences - Oakville Condos For Sale - Condo Investments
The Randall Residences is a condo development by Rosehaven Homes located at 300 Randall St, Oakville. Offering 36 units at 4 storeys-tall.
condoinvestments.ca
Allandale25
Senior Member
LILLEY: Six Nations chief says group behind subway injunction doesn't represent his community
It's a battle over who claims to be the legitimate leaders of Six Nations and it's now centred around a blocked subway construction project.
torontosun.com
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
I wish we could snap our fingers and revert to the vastly superior Relief Line station plan for Osgoode. I'm not calling for a reversion to the whole RL project, just this station. It had a lower concourse for an easier transition between lines and did not touch the grounds of Osgoode Hall.
robmausser
Senior Member
The irony of this situation is that the way the procurement for the Ontario Line moved forward was in direct opposition to how the liberals dragged their heels on every single project, with tons of community townhalls, surveys and assessments to try and mitigate any complaints.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
kamira51
Active Member
Public consultations are both a blessing and a curse.
Adjei
Senior Member
Yes and which ensured the slow pace of building anything. How much did the Liberals build over the 15 years they were in power ? Just endless delay after endless delay.
crs1026
Superstar
I'm not sure that the delays were due to excessive or endless or burdensome process.
More like, the Liberals made promise after promise but were secretly averse to actually spending money. So they just kept talking, and studying, effectively ragging the puck.
As for Toronto subway construction, the problem was that Council could not agree on a plan, not that they encountered bureaucratic barriers after they chose a plan and launched it. When you tear up one plan and substitute another, yes, it wastes time.
And, then there's SmartTrack - designed on a napkin with obvious techncial non-starters, and it took a couple years of study to prove what was readily obvious to technical experts from the beginning.
- Paul
MrGoose
Active Member
If you look at the factum provided in the LSO vs ML case, you'll see that the TTC was considering expansion into the Osgoode Hall grounds because of concerns around overcrowding of the Northeast entrance.
And those trees would've been cut down to create the access shaft/ lower concourse in the TTC version anyways. It's almost as if the Ontario Line was just an alternative to the original Relief Line plans that Ford picked up and claimed as his own, and that the engineering staff over at Metrolinx tried to reuse alot of the TTC's work.
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