[nfitz]

The full length along Queen Street from Pape to Roncesvalles is 9 km, which is significantly longer than the original Yonge line.

9 km is significantly longer than 7 km?

Though there's no time frame to extend west of City Hall. Nor any guarantee that it will stay on Queen, or extend as far west as Roncesvalles.

No need to worry about streetcar removals as part of this project.

3 more downtown stations under construction than Toronto has right now .

So how many downtown stations will Ottawa have when it's completed? Just 3 right?

And how many new underground stations does Ottawa have under construction right now? I'm counting 18 - though perhaps 17, as there's no works yet at Science Centre station as far as I know.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I'm definitely a bit miffed by the lack of stations with the DRL. And though it's not as important for me, ditto for this new station-less Scarb Subway (Lawrence East is one of our top 10 busiest routes!). I definitely get the reason (cost, depth, complexity, etc) - but it's still annoying. Particularly when we see projects like the Crosstown with so many stations close together (*cough* Chaplin, Oakwood *cough*), or whatever's going on at Highway 407 Station.

Not at Lawrence East station it's not.

College Station isn't so bad because via the College Park shopping centre, one can access a climate-free pedestrian walkway almost all the way down to Gerrard. I do believe they are planning on opening up a subway entrance to the new Ryerson building at Gould.

Oh how I wish this were true!

I doubt it though.

 

[salsa]

The 3.6 km from Pape to City Hall is only the first phase of the RL. It will eventually reach all the way to the Roncesvalles area. At that point it will make sense to remove the central portion of the streetcar.

Based on my talks with a TTC service planner at one of the public meetings, there are no plans to scuttle the Queen streetcar under any circumstances.

 

[ksun]

That because those that did were imprisoned and tortured.

Let's stop comparing a brutal military dictatorship to an advanced democracy.

If that indeed makes you feel better about Toronto's sad transit... I know you have the tendency to rationalize a lot of things... New streetcar delay, not Bombardia's problem! Presto late and costly, not TTC's fault! Everything is great in Toronto, look, our ridership is so high, better than Houston, what a success story! I remember you kept saying for months the UPX price is completely normal and all the business passengers will fill up the trains in days, how did that turn out?

And do you think our failure to build any subway in the past 20 years, our laughable dinosaur system and all the transit problems delays and malfunctions a result of "advanced democracy"? I don't see the advanced part somehow. Wake up and stop keeping your head in the sand. There's absolutely nothing about the TTC that's remotely advanced in this world. It is rather democracy going wrong, isn't it?

I don't expect to see Tonronto build 5 subways in 10 years (I am sure most of us do want it) but please don't denigrate the word democracy by associating it with Toronto politicians's utter incompetency.

 

[nfitz]

New streetcar delay, not Bombardia's problem!

I never said that.

Presto late and costly, not TTC's fault!

Metrolinx is implementing it, and not TTC. The delays are a Metrolinx issue. What has this got to do with the relief line?

Everything is great in Toronto, look, our ridership is so high, better than Houston, what a success story!

I don't think I've ever mentioned Houston. As far as I know, we are outdoing every city in the USA in terms of transit usage rate except New York City.

I remember you kept saying for months the UPX price is completely normal and all the business passengers will fill up the trains in days, how did that turn out?

I never said that it would fill the trains. And I've been saying from day one that they should cheapen the Union to Weston and Bloor fares - which they have done.

And do you think our failure to build any subway in the past 20 years, our laughable dinosaur system and all the transit problems delays and malfunctions a result of "advanced democracy"?

You commented that you didn't know anyone in Shanghai complaining ... despite well documented evidence that the evil military dictatorship has imprisoned and tortured those in Shanghai who objected to having their land expropriated (basically stolen given the low compensation). It's shocking that anyone would be so unethical to promote such a backwards and fundamentally evil system, and try and pretend that no one complained.

I don't see the advanced part somehow.

Advanced democracies are defined as countries with institutional democracy and a high level of economic development and prosperity.

Is it that you don't you don't see a high level of economic development and prosperity in Canada - or that you simply don't understand what an advanced democracy.

Wake up and stop keeping your head in the sand.

Your trying to spread blatant lies about no one in Shanghai complaining is having your head in the sand. Why whitewash such extreme evil?

There's absolutely nothing about the TTC that's remotely advanced in this world.

I never said there was. I challenged your lies about no one in Shanghai complaining.

... denigrate the word democracy by associating it with Toronto politicians's utter incompetency.

Compared to China's completely backwards utter incompetency? Given how utterly backwards that nation is democratically. Surely on a scale of shit from 1 to 100, TTC transit is about an 8, and a nation that imprisons, tortures, and massacres people for the simple act of speaking out against their corrupt government is a 100.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I don't expect to see Tonronto build 5 subways in 10 years (I am sure most of us do want it) but please don't denigrate the word democracy by associating it with Toronto politicians's utter incompetency.

credit to @salsa

 

[salsa]

Since apparently it is completely off limits to talk about any asian city because "blablabla brutal dictatorship", I'm sure Toronto has nothing to learn from some of the other evil nondemocratic backwaters such as...


Paris

Madrid and Barcelona

Los Angeles

And in the future:

 

[W. K. Lis]

Nice when someone other than the city in question helps pay for both capital and operating costs.

 

[lead82]

Other levels of government would be more likely to step up if Toronto would step up more instead of always crying poor. We are the largest and wealthiest city in the country. If Toronto had the guts to raise property taxes on all the single family homes in the city it would generate enough revenue to pay for operating costs. Charge tolls on Gardiner/DVP and voila you have revenue to take on debt to slowly pay off the capital investments.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Other levels of government would be more likely to step up if Toronto would step up more instead of always crying poor. We are the largest and wealthiest city in the country. If Toronto had the guts to raise property taxes on all the single family homes in the city it would generate enough revenue to pay for operating costs. Charge tolls on Gardiner/DVP and voila you have revenue to take on debt to slowly pay off the capital investments.

The Los Angeles example given above has other sources of revenue other than property taxes. LA has a portion of sales taxes, as well as income taxes, allocated to Los Angeles.

Toronto only has property taxes as their main source. There are parking, fines, and a few other sources, but the majority comes from property taxes.

 

[Palma]

I think as long as any point of Queen Street is within easy walking distance of a subway station, very few people will take the streetcar for "local service". At that point running streetcars will make no sense.


Not on top of subway lines they're not.

well how many stations will be put on queen anyways?

 

[nfitz]

well how many stations will be put on queen anyways?

Other than those intersecting Line 1 stations? Three - assuming they don't cut one between Yonge and the Don.

 

[MisterF]

9 km is significantly longer than 7 km?

Though there's no time frame to extend west of City Hall. Nor any guarantee that it will stay on Queen, or extend as far west as Roncesvalles.

No need to worry about streetcar removals as part of this project.

The point is that if a 7 km line along Yonge is long enough to replace the streetcar then a 9 km line along Queen is long enough too. I do agree that the first phase is too soon to remove any streetcar trackage. But even in the first phase my bet is that streetcar ridership will drop significantly on that part of the route as riders from the east transfer onto the subway to get downtown. And people who live and work between Pape and downtown will rarely use the streetcar at all.

Other than those intersecting Line 1 stations? Three - assuming they don't cut one between Yonge and the Don.

Who knows, they might even add one.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If they had kept the streetcars on Yonge Street and Bloor & Danforth, they would be able to use the larger capacity of the streetcars during subway closures. In addition, the streetcars would be running as a Blue Night service.

If they had upgraded the North Yonge Railway radial streetcars instead of abandoning them, we would have had them running on a right-of-way up Yonge Street to Richmond Hill (if not Lake Simcoe).

 

[gweed123]

Other levels of government would be more likely to step up if Toronto would step up more instead of always crying poor. We are the largest and wealthiest city in the country. If Toronto had the guts to raise property taxes on all the single family homes in the city it would generate enough revenue to pay for operating costs. Charge tolls on Gardiner/DVP and voila you have revenue to take on debt to slowly pay off the capital investments.

Yup. In the past decade, Toronto has committed funding to a grand total of 2 subway extension projects, totalling about $2.45 billion (Spadina + Scarborough). Needless to say, it will be receiving significantly more than that in transit infrastructure, mostly paid for by the Province. And of that, the Scarborough money wasn't even needed, since it was replacing a fully Provincially funded (and arguably superior) plan.

For comparison, Ottawa (less than 1/4 the population), is contributing $2.5 billion for Phase I and Phase II of the Confederation Line, to be complete by 2022. Yup, a City 1/4 the size will be putting more money into transit expansion. Waterloo Region is in the same boat relative to their population.

For all the boasting that Toronto Council and the Mayor does about undergoing a massive expansion in transit, the vast majority of it is being done with Provincial and Federal dollars. The City itself contributing a relative pittance to it, compared to other municipalities of a much smaller size.