[robmausser]

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2013/12/22-aftermath_.shtml

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ttc-service-resumes-hours-after-subway-flooding-1.2031265

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-rare-toronto-subway-detour/article22504813/

http://o.canada.com/news/unidentified-debris-creates-chaos-on-toronto-subway-line

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/to...haos-in-toronto-as-main-subway-line-shuttered

https://stevemunro.ca/2013/08/03/the-100-year-lie/



Tunnels have their own issues, and are very expensive to maintain. They are an over-the-top solution to weather problems. Like bringing a jackhammer to install a picture frame.

There are solutions for above ground lines like heated swtiches, etc that solve any weather issue at a fraction of the cost.

 

[robmausser]

That alignment is stupid. Follows the DVP, then hits the northern edge of Thorncliffe Park, completely avoids getting close to Flemingdon Park, takes the old CN Leaside spur which has single family houses backing onto it, and then it follows DOn Mills. No wonder it failed.

The Leaside Spur is going to be reclaimed by GO transit someday, as its the only way to get GO trains to use the Don Branch. Can't wait for the nimbyism. Its a trail now but its been earmarked by Metrolinx "for future tranist use", meaning there is no protection of the trail. (Although there is room for both a trail and double track) Luckily the Ontario government has a lot more "I dont care about your nimbyism" attitude than the city does.

I think that a rail bridge of some kind will be needed to take the subway from Pape to Don Mills over the Don Valley. That will most likely be an above ground section. Whether it stays above ground or trenched on Don Mills will depend on a couple of factors.

There are some newer more minimally invasive ways to do elevated rail

 

[salsa]

The Leaside Spur is going to be reclaimed by GO transit someday, as its the only way to get GO trains to use the Don Branch. Can't wait for the nimbyism. Its a trail now but its been earmarked by Metrolinx "for future tranist use", meaning there is no protection of the trail. (Although there is room for both a trail and double track) Luckily the Ontario government has a lot more "I dont care about your nimbyism" attitude than the city does.

I think that a rail bridge of some kind will be needed to take the subway from Pape to Don Mills over the Don Valley. That will most likely be an above ground section. Whether it stays above ground or trenched on Don Mills will depend on a couple of factors.

There are some newer more minimally invasive ways to do elevated rail

Hopefully the planned overpass in Davenport and Mt Dennis will set a good precedent.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The Leaside Spur is going to be reclaimed by GO transit someday, as its the only way to get GO trains to use the Don Branch. Can't wait for the nimbyism. Its a trail now but its been earmarked by Metrolinx "for future tranist use", meaning there is no protection of the trail. (Although there is room for both a trail and double track) Luckily the Ontario government has a lot more "I dont care about your nimbyism" attitude than the city does.

I think that a rail bridge of some kind will be needed to take the subway from Pape to Don Mills over the Don Valley. That will most likely be an above ground section. Whether it stays above ground or trenched on Don Mills will depend on a couple of factors.

There are some newer more minimally invasive ways to do elevated rail

Thing is, there's three river crossings north of Danforth:

• Lower Don River+DVP, near where Donlands and Pape merge into the Millwood overpass. I think there's potential for the Millwood overpass to be modified to handle a subway overpass.
• West Don River, west of Don Mills/Overlea. The Overlea overpass doesn't really work for modification, a new bridge here is likely.
• East Don River, Don Mills ROad between York Mills and the 401. This might be a potential elevated subway line area, so I'd say new elevated overpass. Unless anyone has the balls to suggest taking two road lanes away and putting it at-grade.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The TTC actually like underground lines better as they don't have to worry about Ice and snow building up on the line and interfering with equipment onit like switches and trip arms. On the colder days on both lines they have trains that are equipped with sprayers that they use to spread deicing fluid on the third rail too keep ice from building up on it. Because of the high current flowing through the third rail it snow melts on it but can become sticky and ucy if it's cold enough that's what crippled the TTC during the storm of 99, they had to run trains only in the tunneled sections of the lines.

The last time we a snow storm the sheppard east line was closed down anyway. Complete misnomer.

 

[nfitz]

The last time we a snow storm the sheppard east line was closed down anyway. Complete misnomer.

When was that? I don't see any indication of it this winter in https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=sheppard from:ttcnotices&src=typd&lang=en

 

[Kitsune]

Thing is, there's three river crossings north of Danforth:

• Lower Don River+DVP, near where Donlands and Pape merge into the Millwood overpass. I think there's potential for the Millwood overpass to be modified to handle a subway overpass.
• West Don River, west of Don Mills/Overlea. The Overlea overpass doesn't really work for modification, a new bridge here is likely.
• East Don River, Don Mills ROad between York Mills and the 401. This might be a potential elevated subway line area, so I'd say new elevated overpass. Unless anyone has the balls to suggest taking two road lanes away and putting it at-grade.

With the tunnels already 18-20 meters deep - I wonder if its a better idea to have the line run above / beside the DVP before linking with Don mills shortly after the DVP as an elevated line before going back underground at Don Mills / Overlea. I doubt the Leaside bridge can be modifed. It already had extra lanes tacked on in the 60's. And a new double deck bridge would likely cost around a billion dollars not to mention having to bring the line upwards from its 18-20 meter depth only to drop it again to get under the West Don + on a tight curve to get under Overlea.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

With the tunnels already 18-20 meters deep - I wonder if its a better idea to have the line run above / beside the DVP before linking with Don mills shortly after the DVP as an elevated line before going back underground at Don Mills / Overlea. I doubt the Leaside bridge can be modifed. It already had extra lanes tacked on in the 60's. And a new double deck bridge would likely cost around a billion dollars not to mention having to bring the line upwards from its 18-20 meter depth only to drop it again to get under the West Don + on a tight curve to get under Overlea.

So, completely bypass Thorncliffe Park? I understand the rationale but don't think bypassing a designated Neighbourhood Improvement area that is densely populated, very multicultural, low income, high unemployment and mostly people with children is going to fly.

 

[adrianaliu]

I'd like to comment that a lot of peoples designs for the subway north of Bloor seem to be underground tunnels.

In Toronto we have a weird fetishization or blinder-vision of the fact that subways must be underground, even in areas outside of dense urban cores. This inability to look for alternatives is bleeding the city dry in the transit department.

Obviously downtown the first phase of the DRL must be underground, but its warranted due to density. Any other option would be intrusive.

We look at subway maps like New York and Chicago and say "hey why can't we have such a sprawling underground subway network?" without realising, 2/3 of their network outside of the core are elevated rail.

It all started in the 1970's when plans for an above ground section of the Yonge subway extension was shut down because of NIMBYISM.

Here you can see a model of the above ground proposal

Apparently a loud, huge 401 overpass was OK, but not a quiet subway line.

(more info here: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5105.shtml)

Ever since this, from the Sheppard Subway, the Spadina Extension, and now the Scarborough Extension, we are unnecessarily building extensions into the suburbs underground at great cost.

We keep talking about that there is no funding for the DRL, but you know why? Because we are wasting billions in the suburbs by unnecessarily tunneling underground in areas that don't need underground subways!

Just a little rant, and really I hope it doesn't come off as angry and dismissive. I love everyones input into how they think the DRL should proceed after phase 1. But lets not make the same mistake over and over again, and remember that above ground alignments for the suburbs is how many other cities operate, and why they have such a sprawling large subway network while Toronto has tiny stubways.

Perhaps it will turn out that above ground alignments for the north part of the DRL won't work, but it should always be examined and investigated where possible.

I agree that we need to look at more options including above ground subways, but the DRL needs to be underground i cant think of a place where it can go above ground without destroying the don valley. But for sure above ground subways are valid i think the TYSSE should have been above ground north of steeles.

 

[Kitsune]

So, completely bypass Thorncliffe Park? I understand the rationale but don't think bypassing a designated Neighbourhood Improvement area that is densely populated, very multicultural, low income, high unemployment and mostly people with children is going to fly.

Maybe an elevated station could be worked north of the DVP with a wide walk way to the station from Thorncliffe ? Looking at Google Earth I think that is a much shorter walk for the denser part of Thorncliffe then a Station under Overlea.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Maybe an elevated station could be worked north of the DVP with a wide walk way to the station from Thorncliffe ? Looking at Google Earth I think that is a much shorter walk for the denser part of Thorncliffe then a Station under Overlea.

Station under Overlea gives direct access to East York Town Centre and connection for local surface routes, including potentially, a circuitious feeder bus for Thorncliffe Park Dr to shuttle persons (especially one with mobility concerns) directly to the station.

One of the (many) main benefits of the DRL is to drastically increase access to Flemingdon and Thorncliffe Park, two areas with very high density and "Neighbourhood Improvement Areas" designations. Their commute times to downtown could decrease from over 45 minutes to less than 15 minutes.

I'm very much in agreeance that this city needs to look at elevated transit *cough* SSE and Sheppard East *cough*, but I am also alarmed of the "cheapening" of the DRL. This is not the line to go cheap on, it needs to meet all our transit and planning policy objectives because it is our magic bullet to solving our transit problems on the east-side of Yonge. This isn't a case of allowing perfection being the enemy of the good either, because the issues created by not tunneling (e.g. not serving Thorncliffe/Flemingdon Park neighbourhoods) will be exacerbated by a DRL alignment that fails to provide access to rapid transit.

It isn't a matter of doing it cheaper. It is a matter of doing it wrong.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

When was that? I don't see any indication of it this winter in https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=sheppard from:ttcnotices&src=typd&lang=en

Years ago. Not this winter.

 

[BurlOak]

Thing is, there's three river crossings north of Danforth:

• Lower Don River+DVP, near where Donlands and Pape merge into the Millwood overpass. I think there's potential for the Millwood overpass to be modified to handle a subway overpass.
• West Don River, west of Don Mills/Overlea. The Overlea overpass doesn't really work for modification, a new bridge here is likely.
• East Don River, Don Mills ROad between York Mills and the 401. This might be a potential elevated subway line area, so I'd say new elevated overpass. Unless anyone has the balls to suggest taking two road lanes away and putting it at-grade.

In rough numbers, a bridge would cost about $8M/ 100m. The elevated structure (repetative piers every 40m to 50m with concrete girders) would be about $5M/ 100m. Tracks, electric, signals, etc. are extra.

 

[W. K. Lis]

When the Leaside Bridge was constructed in 1927, it was built on the cheap. They were able to widen the bridge for a total of six lanes in the late 1960's.

Unfortunately, they didn't duplicate the Prince Edward Viaduct, which included provision for a rapid transit line.

So, we'll need to build a separate rapid transit bridge for the DRL next to the Leaside Bridge somewhere.

 

[Hopkins123]

Thing is, there's three river crossings north of Danforth:

• Lower Don River+DVP, near where Donlands and Pape merge into the Millwood overpass. I think there's potential for the Millwood overpass to be modified to handle a subway overpass.
• West Don River, west of Don Mills/Overlea. The Overlea overpass doesn't really work for modification, a new bridge here is likely.
• East Don River, Don Mills ROad between York Mills and the 401. This might be a potential elevated subway line area, so I'd say new elevated overpass. Unless anyone has the balls to suggest taking two road lanes away and putting it at-grade.

To put this into an illustration for the forumers, I present this:



Elevation (skybridge) would exist in the following points:

(1): jetting out of Minton Place north of Pape Ave into the Don Valley but at a lower height than the Millwood Bridge to permit crossing underneath and reentering a tunnel between Milepost and Overlea Blvd (the pathway opposite St Edith Stein Catholic Church). This would allow for the Thorncliffe Park Stn to be located in the back lot of the East York Town Centre with the main entrance affronting Thorncliffe East and Overlea.

(2) jetting out of a second portal from the parking lot of the ITechnica Inc building, the subway crosses on a bridge underneath the Overlea bridge, past Valley Park Middle School then reemerges into a tunnel by the hydro corridor for the next station, Flemingdon Park, at Don Mills and Gateway Blvd (north leg).

(3) after crossing the Bala Sub below grade, emerges out of a portal north of Bond Ave for a massive 2 kilometre stretch of skybridge, including a station at York Mills Rd. Remains elevated over the 401 on its own separate bridge before descending into a portal by Parkways Forest Dr for the final stretch to the existing Don Mills Stn.

Thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.