[TransitBart]

doofus

https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesPasternak/status/964151156997058560

I didn’t know he was that stupid.

 

[TransitBart]

I do. Or at least with construction well on the way to completion.

I do.

 

[micheal_can]

If the Smart Track came online within the next 5 years, could it do anything meaningful to relive ridership from Yonge?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the Smart Track came online within the next 5 years, could it do anything meaningful to relive ridership from Yonge?

ST ridership is highly sensitive to pricing. Without it being priced as a standard TTC fare, probably not. The last SmartTrack report expects it to move less people than the Victoria Park bus, if there is no fare integration.

 

[micheal_can]

ST ridership is highly sensitive to pricing. Without it being priced as a standard TTC fare, probably not. The last SmartTrack report expects it to move less people than the Victoria Park bus, if there is no fare integration.

Let's say it was priced as a TTC route.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the Smart Track came online within the next 5 years, could it do anything meaningful to relive ridership from Yonge?

ST ridership is highly sensitive to pricing. Without it being priced as a standard TTC fare, probably not. The last SmartTrack report expects it to move less people than the Victoria Park bus, if there is no fare integration.

Let's say it was priced as a TTC route.

This is the information you are asking for. I've circled the relevant rows:

'

East of Union, SmartTrack frequencies will be something greater than 5 mins, but less than 10 mins. So assuming a TTC fare is used, the Yonge relief expected can be somewhere between 1,200 and 6,700 pphpd.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-90866.pdf

 

[W. K. Lis]

Let's say it was priced as a TTC route.

SmartTrack may provide some relief, if they can transfer as a "free transfer". Less if only a "discount fare". Even less, if the transfer connection is "lousy".

From link.

 

[micheal_can]

This is the information you are asking for. I've circled the relevant rows:

View attachment 135008 '

East of Union, SmartTrack frequencies will be something greater than 5 mins, but less than 10 mins. So assuming a TTC fare is used, the Yonge relief expected can be somewhere between 1,200 and 6,700 pphpd.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-90866.pdf

Would 1,200 pphpd be enough to see something meaningful? What is the lowest pphpd needed to be a relief to Yonge line?

 

[TransitBart]

If the Smart Track came online within the next 5 years, could it do anything meaningful to relive ridership from Yonge?

The answer to this question is that almost anything that is properly connected (networked) with the existing network which is scaled large and fast (ie trains/rail - LRT, subway, commuter) and not stuck in traffic will provide relief. As others have pointed out, pricing is a variable.

We are behind. Far behind. That is going to take a decade or more to fix.

 

[ssiguy2]

I think the impact of ST is GROSSLY underestimated.

It makes the very stupid assumption that al the riders from the entire Don Valley corridor would still take the Bloor Line. Anyone with a grain of intelligence would continue on their bus trip a few blocks further south of Bloor to get to Gerrard ST station and get to Union in half the time and twice the comfort of taking the B/D/Yonge route and all it would take is extending the bus routes from the DV further south to ST. ST would also get all the riders south of Bloor taking the streetcar to ST would still be faster than going to the nearest B/D station. If the entire RER system was done by fare-by-distance using the same fare as TTC then it would get every single rider from Scar heading to Union.

If it is run at near-subway frequencies with TTC fares RER/ST will greatly relieve the B&Y station. ST could easily capture more than half the riders crossing over the DVP on the B/D line. ST/ RER has the ability to become a relief line with a few adjustments to the streetcar and bus routes but as noted earlier it will all come down to the fares.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It makes the very stupid assumption that al the riders from the entire Don Valley corridor would still take the Bloor Line. Anyone with a grain of intelligence would continue on their bus trip a few blocks further south of Bloor to get to Gerrard ST station

It would take 5 minutes on the bus to get to Gerrard Station from Pape/Danforth Avenue by bus. It would take longer from any other point on Danforth Avenue. Then people have to wait between 0 and 6 minutes for the train to come. (an average of 3 mins) And then they have to spend several more minutes getting out of Union GO Station. In that time, you could travel a large distance on the subway system.

 

[syn]

Will Smart Track help? In theory it should. For all the talk that the SSE is needed because Scarborough residents need a direct connection downtown, Smart Track seems to be a far, far better choice in that regard.

If priced right with decent frequencies, Smart Track should have some positive impact on Yonge Line overcrowding.

I liked this proposal in the 2014 election - but 4 years later, it's quite obvious Tory's 7 year timeline to have it up and running isn't anywhere near accurate. I'm not even sure we have some relatively accurate projections.

 

[steveintoronto]

Will Smart Track help? In theory it should. For all the talk that the SSE is needed because Scarborough residents need a direct connection downtown, Smart Track seems to be a far, far better choice in that regard.

If priced right with decent frequencies, Smart Track should have some positive impact on Yonge Line overcrowding.

I liked this proposal in the 2014 election - but 4 years later, it's quite obvious Tory's 7 year timeline to have it up and running isn't anywhere near accurate. I'm not even sure we have some relatively accurate projections.

Some seem to miss that even though "SmartTrack" in name is a fudge, the concept of better utilizing surface rail isn't.

London’s other railway holds many lessons for Toronto, Mayor John Tory
While Tory is fixated on the experience of Crossrail, experts say London Overground has transformed commuting

By Jennifer Pagliaro TorStar City Hall reporter
Tues., Nov. 3, 2015

“It’s a big train set,” says Mike Stubbs, head of London Overground’s rail network, as he sits in from of an unfurled map of the city’s train corridors in a meeting room inside Transport for London’s offices.

When Mayor John Tory visited London last week, much of his trip was dedicated to transit — specifically what lessons could be drawn from the success of a massive heavy-rail project known as Crossrail.

But while in London, Tory did not investigate the success of another railway — London Overground — what may be even more applicable to provincial plans for regional express rail and his own vision for a heavy-rail line dubbed SmartTrack.

The Star met with Stubbs to learn how his team transformed regional commutes in and around London using almost entirely existing rail and a hugely successful rebrand.

London Overground officials took existing rail lines and created a wildly popular commuter service serving more than 100 stations in less than 10 years.
[...]
They began better linking up the individual lines, purchased new open trains — similar to the new subway cars in Toronto — and fixed up the stations with fresh coats of paint, CCTV cameras and brand new “Overground” logos.

Now the service runs in an orbital route, connecting to Underground stations that take passengers farther into the heart of London and transporting commuters to jobs in the boroughs outside of the main financial hubs.

In 2008, when the new service opened, the Overground was carrying 33 million passengers a year. Today they are forecasting just over 176 million.

“That growth is without adding any more routes in,” Stubbs said.

He said a major focus was improving the quality of the service already being used, adding stations to the existing network — from 83 to more than 110 — and adding 20 to 35 per cent to the network in expansions and planning future electrification while garnering political support for their growth. Mayor Boris Johnson, who oversees Transport for London, has personally advocated for the expansion of trains from four to five cars.
[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...many-lessons-for-toronto-mayor-john-tory.html

London's Overground has increased in bounds even since the above was written.
Go-ahead for £263m London Overground extension |
But what would London or anyone else know about transit, eh? Toronto knows it all!

"Subways! Subways! Subways!"

Meantime, in a "world class city":

[...]
The extension is fully funded, with £172m of the £263m cost of the scheme being met by the developers, Barking Riverside Limited.

The remainder will partially come from TfL’s Growth Fund.

Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London, said: “This is wonderful news for east London.

“Barking Riverside has huge potential to deliver thousands of much-needed affordable homes, and the extension of the Overground will ensure residents have the high-quality transport links they need, both to the surrounding area and commuting into central London.

“Barking Riverside will deliver new homes, schools, healthcare facilities and much more, and the Overground extension is a vital part of making these exciting plans a reality.”
[...]

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/08/08/go-ahead-for-263m-london-overground-extension/

And in case it appears that the Overground doesn't involve tunnels:

[...]The incorporation of the East London Line into the Overground network has added substantial sections of line in tunnel, including the historic Thames Tunnel, the oldest tunnel under a navigable river in the world. A peculiarity is that at Whitechapel the London Overground runs below the London Underground (though there are other parts of the network where this occurs, e.g.: the Watford Junction to Euston route between Kenton and South Kenton – shared with the Bakerloo line – passes under the Metropolitan line between Northwick Park and Preston Road). [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Overground

 

[M II A II R II K]

Would there even be space for a London Ooverground here unless you made GO only do express routes and the local stops are served by smaller trains.

 

[steveintoronto]

Would there even be space for a London Ooverground here unless you made GO only do express routes and the local stops are served by smaller trains.

It's almost exactly as Verster puts the case for RER in the excellent article by @jenglish at this very site:

[...]
According to Verster, the proposed system would still be somewhat different from German S-Bahn or French RER systems, but it would share most of their essential characteristics. GO RER lines would be more like a subway, rather than the limited commuter services they are today.
[...]
In effect, GO RER would mimic overseas regional rail systems, with trains running from one side of the region to the other through downtown along dedicated track paths, which Verster says would “greatly add to our capacity through the corridor.” This problem, and possible solutions, was discussed in greater detail in an earlier article.

It is frankly exciting to hear a Metrolinx head talking in detail about finally developing clear plans to resolve these longstanding obstacles that stand in the way of real regional rail service.
[...]
One of the key questions for RER is the trains themselves. Today, GO operates an exclusive fleet of diesel-locomotive-hauled bilevel cars. Most international regional rail operations use electric multiple units (EMUs), owing to their rapid acceleration and braking, which shortens journeys and enables trains to run more closely together. Verster explained that EMUs also offer far more flexibility in terms of shortening trains to match capacity to demand in off-peak periods. There are significant performance differences between EMUs and the current bilevel trains, even if the latter are hauled by electric locomotives. Mixing trains that have different performance adds complexity to signalling and infrastructure planning. Infrastructure designed for vehicles with limited performance (freight trains are also a problem in this regard) is considerably more expensive than infrastructure designed exclusively for high-performance EMUs. However, as Verster explained, it would likely be cost-prohibitive to entirely replace GO’s enormous fleet of 1,000 bilevel cars. He did leave open the possibility of a different approach, since the final decision on the fleet composition will be in the hands of Metrolinx’s private partner.
[...]

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2018/02/union-station-and-go-rer-metrolinxs-phil-verster-future

I suggest reading the article, at least once, and exploring the many points made by Googling for further detail and realisation of how this is established and working in many cities, both larger and smaller than Toronto, but all far ahead in terms of leading practice.