[MisterF]

Also, the Queen Line proposal wasn’t a subway in any sense that would be recognized by modern Torontonians. It would be more like the Queen’s Quay streetcar tunnel... just longer.

If I recall correctly, the route was planned to have underground streetcars until about Trinity Bellwood’s. After that, it would’ve ran on street in mixed traffic like a regular streetcar line, with various branches. Certainly not built to provide any significant Yonge capacity relief.

While the original rapid transit plan for Queen Street was an underground streetcar with branches like the Green line in Boston, by 1966 the line was planned as a full subway. It was to go south down Don Mills and then west along Queen into the west end. It was the relief line before anyone called it that.

 

[sixrings]

Kennedy, Warden and Vic Park stations are in Scarborough and have been just fine from a ridership perspective for over 40 years. Therefore your point is BS. As for densification...if they used that justification 60 years ago, there would be no subway built.

If they used that metric queen and a drl of some sort would have been built and Toronto would simply be much different than it is today. A semi detached house would have been considered suburban vs how all my friends grew up in Scarborough with 4 bedroom houses, double car garages on a cul de sac and three cars to a family. Subways still would have been built, the city would just be built much different.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Here's a thought. As long as they are tunneling on Queen anyway, what about doing a double decker tunnel a là San Francisco, with streetcars going on the upper level and.the Ontario line on the lower level? You could improve travel times for streetcars through the most congested part of the core at the same time as building the Ontario line.

 

[sixrings]

Here's a thought. As long as they are tunneling on Queen anyway, what about doing a double decker tunnel a là San Francisco, with streetcars going on the upper level and.the Ontario line on the lower level? You could improve travel times for streetcars through the most congested part of the core at the same time as building the Ontario line.

Why not make queen a ROW like king and solve the problem for a lot less money with a lot less stairs for passengers to travel.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why not make queen a ROW like king and solve the problem for a lot less money with a lot less stairs for passengers to travel.

In Europe, more and more cities are banning the private automobile from the city centres. With Toronto's streetcars, we could too.

See link.

 

[sixrings]

In Europe, more and more cities are banning the private automobile from the city centres. With Toronto's streetcars, we could too.

See link.

Well I don't know how we can fully ban cars when all these new condos use queen or king to access parking garages. Just ban parking in the right lane and turning left on these streets and it would make a world of difference.

 

[smallspy]

While you're not entirely wrong here, it's fairly significant to remember that the "late 1960s" puts the first talk of it VERY shortly after BD opened. Moreover, the streetcar abandonment program was premised on King/Queen lasting into the 80s when they expected some kind of Queen line to open. Similarly, the pre First World War subway plans sometimes had a bloor line pencilled in as a future possiblility, hence the Bloor Viaducts lower deck. A second East/West line is relatively recent as an immediate need, but has been floating around as "the project after next" for a long time.

You're right on all counts - the need for the additional line was always projected as being required at some nebulous point in the future, but in the more recent history what is now the DRL/Ontario Line was "designed" very shortly after the BD opened. They realized that long ago that the traffic levels would increase enough to justify it.

Also, the Queen Line proposal wasn’t a subway in any sense that would be recognized by modern Torontonians. It would be more like the Queen’s Quay streetcar tunnel... just longer.

If I recall correctly, the route was planned to have underground streetcars until about Trinity Bellwood’s. After that, it would’ve ran on street in mixed traffic like a regular streetcar line, with various branches. Certainly not built to provide any significant Yonge capacity relief.

This is the other issue that maybe I should have touched on. You're absolutely right in that the original cross-town route - the one envisioned before the Second World War - was conceived as a streetcar line (although some people felt that it warranted being upgraded to a full-fledged subway such as was built under Yonge). When the alignment was moved up to Bloor and Danforth, it was realized that the projected ridership had increased to the point where only a subway would have the capacity needed.

The later rendition of the corridor into downtown was never imagined to be a streetcar - it was always seen as requiring a higher-capacity system. For much of the 1970s and 1980s, it was thought that it would be built as an ICTS system much like the SRT, not a subway.

Dan

 

[TransitBart]

That is as good as dead right?

I have been sitting on the sidelines reading to the debate here on the Ontario line which spans factual and technical and then runs to strongly held opinions and pure hyperbole. Changing the colour of the government from red to blue at Queen's Park didn't eliminate the need for the Relief Line. The passage of time will not change the need for higher order north-south transit in that part of the city.

My response to your post is. "Too early to tell." I think any government that ignored transit in the GTA at this stage is doing so to its own peril. Your post is an opinion based on what has come before. The need still stands.

 

[BurlOak]

So basically, this was the plan from 100 years ago.

and this was the plan of 50 years.

 

[BurlOak]

I have been sitting on the sidelines reading to the debate here on the Ontario line which spans factual and technical and then runs to strongly held opinions and pure hyperbole. Changing the colour of the government from red to blue at Queen's Park didn't eliminate the need for the Relief Line. The passage of time will not change the need for higher order north-south transit in that part of the city.

My response to your post is. "Too early to tell." I think any government that ignored transit in the GTA at this stage is doing so to its own peril. Your post is an opinion based on what has come before. The need still stands.

Toronto subway ridership dropped 25% in the early 1990's. If a similar thing occurs, I don't think that many will be campaigning on spending tons on subways.

As long as governments are smart and pay of debt when times are good - as was done by Harris, Chretien, Martin and Harper - then there could be some appetite for spending during a recession with the realization that someday ridership will pick up.
Everyone is a Keynesian to some degree - but somehow we forget and let the like of Trudeau #1, Mulroney, Trudeau #2, McGuinty, Wynne, get away with running up debt to artificially improve the short-term.

 

[asher__jo]

Kennedy, Warden and Vic Park stations are in Scarborough and have been just fine from a ridership perspective for over 40 years. Therefore your point is BS. As for densification...if they used that justification 60 years ago, there would be no subway built.

I said nothing of Scarborough specifically.

 

[asher__jo]

Why not make queen a ROW like king and solve the problem for a lot less money with a lot less stairs for passengers to travel.

I think that this may be inevitable.

 

[robmausser]

I think that this may be inevitable.

I actually wrote in a proposal to John Torys team about making King and Queen both true Streetcar ROWS with even more strict car access, and bike lanes instead of street parking.

And remove the bike lanes on Richmond and Adelaide and give that back to the cars.

Cars can have those through streets and bikes/streetcars on King and Queen.

 

[syn]

Kennedy, Warden and Vic Park stations are in Scarborough and have been just fine from a ridership perspective for over 40 years. Therefore your point is BS. As for densification...if they used that justification 60 years ago, there would be no subway built.

Not really. These are massive stations with large distances between them.

They're actually great examples of why there haven't been more subways built in Scarborough. Warden opened over 50 years ago and the area remains a low density suburban environment.

@asher__jo is absolutely correct about density and streetcar suburbs. This is why the LRT being above ground in Scarborough is actually a positive thing. It could help lead to more 'urban' environments (pedestrian friendly, etc.).

In any case, density is definitely not an issue as far as the DRL/Ontario Line is concerned.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Not really. These are massive stations with large distances between them.

They're actually great examples of why there haven't been more subways built in Scarborough. Warden opened over 50 years ago and the area remains a low density suburban environment.

@asher__jo is absolutely correct about density and streetcar suburbs. This is why the LRT being above ground in Scarborough is actually a positive thing. It could help lead to more 'urban' environments (pedestrian friendly, etc.).

In any case, density is definitely not an issue as far as the DRL/Ontario Line is concerned.

We've already had this debate, those stations get better ridership with fewer bus trips than the Old Danforth stations do, and that is despite them having fewer stations. Those stations serve an area of 600K people, it makes sense that their ridership is fairly high.

Eglinton east is insanely important, but it's as good as dead in this administration.