- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
rbt
Senior Member
DRL TBMs planned to launch at John Street AFAICS (Laydown Area #1). That's a very long distance (as far as subways are concerned) from Exhibition place. Deferring the western leg trims the price by at least $3B; $90M/year (3% of $3B if invested in government bonds) easily buys full TTC fare integration. GO is killing the current fare reduction as it is around $25M/year.
Tail tracks beyond a University station are necessary for high-frequency turnbacks, but 300m will do. They'll also run some distance past Exhibition station (if built) on the Ontario Line for the same reason.
Last edited:
Allandale25
Senior Member
This was on Global News Toronto tonight:
globalnews.ca
Ontario Line placement concerns nearby residents | Watch News Videos Online
Watch Ontario Line placement concerns nearby residents Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca
globalnews.ca
JSF-1
Active Member
It's not a misplaced belief either. Currently Downtown is really the only place in the GTA that warrants a full subway and it will be for possibly decades. The next logical place imo would be Eglinton but that is still many decades away (I think most of us on this board will be in seniors homes by then). Toronto is just a very sprawled out city with only 1 major sizable dense area. To me the future of Toronto and the GTA's transit is really in things like GO RER, and transforming GO from a mere suburban rail system into an Urban rail system similar to those in Europe and Japan. Taking GO from merely being a means to travel from the burbs into Downtown, to being able to use GO not just to cross the GTA but to travel within your own municipality. The DRL will solve Toronto's major capacity issues for the foreseeable future and any expansion beyond that will likely be local in nature (i.e. Bus and LRT). The next step is turning GO into "the other subway" if you will.
adrianaliu
Active Member
if any line should be immune to value-engineering, it is this one. i really wish we could save the lines that experiment with technology for the suburbs and just do what we know works for the relief line.
gibsonm
Active Member
I really hope you’re wrong on that. If anything the OL should have a second leg running west along Queen at least as far as the Liberty Village ST station, ideally with an entrance on the west side of Dufferin to service the Parkdale streetcars and Dufferin buses. The King and Bathurst (or alternatively Queen and Bathurst) station is essential for new employment and tourism, as the nightlife, media, and fashion jobs have really shifted to King West and Trinity-Bellwoods. I wouldn’t pare down any of the OL.
rbt
Senior Member
Funny thing about all-or-nothing type proposals in Toronto; we almost always go with the "nothing" option.
What we (transit enthusiasts) want and what the much larger anti-tax crowd wants are often in conflict. Heck, even TTC Riders might throw a fit over the fare bump required to subsidize operations of the line; a DBFOM agreement might see TTC billed ~$5 per trip if REM is any indication (50 cents per customer per km is considered an excellent price). We don't really know how the provincial government will deal with these large monthly transit operations costs yet and partially downloading them seems likely over a 30 year period.
Last edited:
JSF-1
Active Member
I think at that point it would likely be better to accept that the "Flat Rate" fare has run its course and is no longer sustainable. We all know the idea of moving to a Zone, Distance, or a combination of both is undesirable to the general public but it has to happen at some point.
Steve X
Senior Member
If it will cost riders significantly more than the regular fare at that time, it would turn into the "407ETR" of the TTC. It won't provide any relief but a new market for those willing to pay for that price. They should also consider either Danforth or Sheppard as the terminal as the low incoming Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park neighbourhood won't be able to afford the luxury and would rather stay on the cheaper bus. Without relief, the Yonge North Extension will just screw over Torontonians.
Any extension costs the system more money to operate. The TYSSE runs pretty empty. Eglinton and Finch West will take another chunk of the budget. They really need new revenue to afford operating the service. This is the part Ford doesn't get. With the previous Liberal government, they do expect the multiplicities to pay a chunk of the service. For the TO, TTC/city will have to pay for operating the trains and daily maintenances. The province would only pay for lifecycle overhaul and infrastructure.
NoahB
Active Member
In the REM case JSF-1 is referring to Montreal's regional provider is expected to absorb the cost and keep it consistent with the STM fares. (That could lead them to increase fairs over the whole region to balance it out but that is another issue.)
Adjei
Senior Member
wa
Transit is now the number one issue for voters:
Transit the number 1 issue for Toronto voters, polls find - CityNews Toronto
With less than a month to go before the municipal election, two new polls find that transit appears to be the main issue among voters.
toronto.citynews.ca
Politicians can't ignore it. Look how much transit is being built not just in Toronto but the GTA and even in Toronto. Compare this to the 80s and 90s. Transit is now the number one issue for both citizens and the politicians which is why we have so many changing plans because politicians know they can use it as a hot bottom issue. No politician can afford to ignore transit.
Transit was ignored for many years and we did not build to keep up growth. Now the population has grown and due to not investing in the past, we have a long list of transit which needs to be built. The Ontario Line may have been planned 108 years ago but even up until 2009 it was not on anybody's radar both at the citizen level and at the political level. It was only recently that even the TTC started to focus on the relief line,
Look I don't like Doug Ford but I will take the Ontario Line over the Relief Line any day. It is a longer line and extends westward as well as northerly to reach the Eglinton Crosstown. It is also cheaper. It is elevated in large parts of the line which is needed in this city. Building everything underground is one of the reasons the subway hasn't been able to be expanded and this is one of the main weaknesses with the Relief Line. It is evident that city of Toronto, TTC are biased against elevated rail. They would rather tunnel everywhere or put transit on the street instead of looking at anything in between. Look at some of the nonsensical reasons they gave for not elevating the Eglinton West extension. Elevated transit is what we should be building in the suburbs. It will help us to expand the system faster instead of tunneling to places like Vaughan. The
The Relief may have more capacity but it was a shorter line and even though the Relief Line North was being planned, there was no guarantee that it would be built anytime soon. There are many examples of transit lines being cut short and the possible future extensions fallen of the radar from Finch LRT, to both the eastern and western extensions of Eglinton LRT, Sheppard subway, etc. Priorities change and funding gets shifted elsewhere. I also believe that with the improvements in GO transit and making it RER, it will help to move some of the riders who would normally use this line onto GO transit which should help with any capacity issues. There is thinking in Toronto to make our lines have the highest capacity instead of expanding out transit system. I will take a transit system which doesn't have the highest capacity but is adequate and reaches many more parts of the city over one with all the capacity but doesn't go anywhere.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
What is the issue with this type of sentiment is that going back to the drawing board on this issue will end up costing more than what is projected and will take years longer to complete since new engineering work needs to be done and previously completed engineering designs are no longer valid. At this point, the Ontario line is just as good as a drawing on a napkin, we don't even know if the planned corridor is feasible without major changes to the travel time, the PATH network, or downtown sewer/gas lines. The change will add at least 3-4 years to the project's timeline as a result of this, and therefore, relief will not come to downtown any time sooner.wa
Transit is now the number one issue for voters:
Transit the number 1 issue for Toronto voters, polls find - CityNews Toronto
With less than a month to go before the municipal election, two new polls find that transit appears to be the main issue among voters.
Politicians can't ignore it. Look how much transit is being built not just in Toronto but the GTA and even in Toronto. Compare this to the 80s and 90s. Transit is now the number one issue for both citizens and the politicians which is why we have so many changing plans because politicians know they can use it as a hot bottom issue. No politician can afford to ignore transit.
Transit was ignored for many years and we did not build to keep up growth. Now the population has grown and due to not investing in the past, we have a long list of transit which needs to be built. The Ontario Line may have been planned 108 years ago but even up until 2009 it was not on anybody's radar both at the citizen level and at the political level. It was only recently that even the TTC started to focus on the relief line,
Look I don't like Doug Ford but I will take the Ontario Line over the Relief Line any day. It is a longer line and extends westward as well as northerly to reach the Eglinton Crosstown. It is also cheaper. It is elevated in large parts of the line which is needed in this city. Building everything underground is one of the reasons the subway hasn't been able to be expanded and this is one of the main weaknesses with the Relief Line. It is evident that city of Toronto, TTC are biased against elevated rail. They would rather tunnel everywhere or put transit on the street instead of looking at anything in between. Look at some of the nonsensical reasons they gave for not elevating the Eglinton West extension. Elevated transit is what we should be building in the suburbs. It will help us to expand the system faster instead of tunneling to places like Vaughan. The
The Relief may have more capacity but it was a shorter line and even though the Relief Line North was being planned, there was no guarantee that it would be built anytime soon. There are many examples of transit lines being cut short and the possible future extensions fallen of the radar from Finch LRT, to both the eastern and western extensions of Eglinton LRT, Sheppard subway, etc. Priorities change and funding gets shifted elsewhere. I also believe that with the improvements in GO transit and making it RER, it will help to move some of the riders who would normally use this line onto GO transit which should help with any capacity issues. There is thinking in Toronto to make our lines have the highest capacity instead of expanding out transit system. I will take a transit system which doesn't have the highest capacity but is adequate and reaches many more parts of the city over one with all the capacity but doesn't go anywhere.
Adjei
Senior Member
They have said that they can complete it by 2027 and even if they slip behind by 2 to 3 years they can still match the shorter relief line opening of 2029. I will take that over a line which is shorter. Can you let me know when the Relief North will open or when any future possible western extension will open?
People are acting like they don't know how transit planning works here in Toronto. Once a line is cut short, future extensions of that line prove difficult due to funding, political will, as well citizen buy in. Sure they may have been planning for the Relief Line north it but that doesn't mean it would get built anytime soon. Look at Eglinton East LRT, 2 or 3 years ago it was a priority for the city but now it's fallen of the radar and no one knows when it even be built. Priorities change. The Eglinton LRT was supposed to reach the airport originally, it was dropped and still has no construction timeline.
I will take take a longer relief line which cost less per kilometres, can be built around the same time frame, has sections which are elevated which can make future extensions easier as well as help with public buy in for elevated rail. If this is executed well, it can make it easier to introduce elevated transit to other parts of the city instead of tunnelling everywhere we currently have. Transit planning is messy in Toronto. It's better to build more of a line now than wait for future extensions which are subject to funding as well as political will.
MisterF
Senior Member
Considering that Doug Ford is the biggest liar in Ontario politics, I'm surprised that anyone believes him about a 2027 completion. If the Ontario line were further ahead in the design process than the relief line was, I'd agree with you. Just build it. But I've seen no credible evidence that the Ontario line can catch up with the work that's already done on the relief line. I don't believe the government's timeline for a second.
On the contrary, I'm basing my opinion on how transit planning works in Toronto. Extensions to existing lines are a lot easier to get built than new lines, especially new lines that go downtown. Lines 1 and 2 have been extended multiple times over the decades. The pace of extensions has slowed down in part because of how far they already go and the fact that any extensions will only make overcrowding worse at the core of the system. The Eglinton example doesn't really support your position - it's hard to criticize progress on an extension to a line that's not even open yet. As for the Ontario line, costs could easily increase and it could still be broken up into phases. That's the thing with lines drawn on napkins, we know next to nothing about them and next to anything about them could change.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
This isn't really true. Line 2 has only been extended once, by one station in either direction (and this was arguably just a part of the ICTS projects in Scarborough and Etobicoke). Line 1 is more complicated -- the Union - St George extension was done as a part of the Bloor-Danforth project, the Spadina - Wilson extension was originally meant to operate as a separate line (that's why the long Spadina tunnel was built), and the Downsview extension was part of the Sheppard project. There has only been one true extension on Yonge, and one or two true extensions on Spadina.