[diminutive]

dimunitive:

Definitely wouldn't get rid of Flemingdon or Cosburn, given the large concentration of transit users in both areas.

AoD

I wouldn't be heart set on it either way, but if providing 'express' service really was the priority I think those two are obvious targets. According to the TTC, Flemingdon would be by quite a margin the lowest volume DRL station between Eglinton and Dundas West. It'd also be one of the easiest to replace with a bus given which could just run between Thorncliffe and Eglinton, serving all the little tower clusters directly.

Cosburn is apparently pretty low volume as well and would be a pain to build. If we got rid of it we could just bore directly from Pape station to the notional bridge portal around Millwood. There are no plans to densify, either. If anything I think it's supposed to remain pretty much static.

That would make the DRL between Eglinton and Danforth way more express than the comparable stretch of Yonge and would, presumably, poach relatively more transfers from the Crosstown.

I went with stations every 500m between Pape and Queen to Spadina and Queen. I get 6 additional stations over a Relief Line configuration, 3 of which (Spadina, Pape, and Broadview) are going to be somewhat more complex than normal stations with large underground streetcar loops.

I don't think 500m spacing is really needed for a 'local' service.

Again, a lot of this depends on what specific routing you end up choosing since some routes are longer than others.

I'm not even sure on your math there, tbh. Pape to Spadina is only 5km. Assuming 500m station spacing you get 10 stations. If you're coming up with 6 additional stations over a basic relief route, that means you're imagining only 4 stations between Spadina and Pape, which seems ridiculous. You'd have stations at Queen and Osgoode, obviously, and probably Spadina, so that mean's you're assuming only one station between Pape and Yonge. As far as I know that's never been the case.

For spacing between Pape and Spadina along Queen, I think the rough layout would be Pape/Carlaw - Broadview - Parliament/River - MossPark - Yonge - Osgoode - Spadina. That would be 700m through the DRL's slowest portion, which is quite express and still quicker than Yonge.

That would be pretty much consistent with Bloor-Danforth's spacing, except no Bay street.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

diminutive:

That would make the DRL between Eglinton and Danforth way more express than the comparable stretch of Yonge and would, presumably, poach relatively more transfers from the Crosstown.

I doubt it would make that much of a material difference in terms of poaching transfers from Crosstown - which IMO is more sensitive to crowding conditions and the location of destination stations than whether you shave 2, 3 minutes off a subway trip that is already in all likelihood faster than going all the way to the Yonge line.

innsertnamehere:

and Alvin, those are both north of Pape, and would be in the second phase.

Yeah - I realize that - but I personally don't buy the phasing plan anyways given the limited utility of the line without an extension to Eglinton at the very least.

AoD

 

[rbt]

3 of which (Spadina, Pape, and Broadview) are going to be somewhat more complex than normal stations with large underground streetcar loops.

4 actually. I forgot about the Cherry Street tram (will use King track) which would likely also go to a station with an underground loop. Portlands development will be well underway by the time the Relief Line is done.

 

[innsertnamehere]

diminutive:



I doubt it would make that much of a material difference in terms of poaching transfers from Crosstown - which IMO is more sensitive to crowding conditions and the location of destination stations than whether you shave 2, 3 minutes off a subway trip that is already in all likelihood faster than going all the way to the Yonge line.

innsertnamehere:



Yeah - I realize that - but I personally don't buy the phasing plan anyways given the limited utility of the line without an extension to Eglinton at the very least.

AoD

The Crosstown only handles 4,900 PPHD at it's heaviest point, which is supposedly going to be around Eglinton West. The DRL going up and stealing people from the yonge line would route MAYBE 1,000 PPHD away from Yonge if they were lucky. I agree that it should be built, but it isn't nearly as important as the portion below Bloor- Yonge, which would probably reroute closer to 10,000 PPHD.

 

[drum118]

The Crosstown only handles 4,900 PPHD at it's heaviest point, which is supposedly going to be around Eglinton West. The DRL going up and stealing people from the yonge line would route MAYBE 1,000 PPHD away from Yonge if they were lucky. I agree that it should be built, but it isn't nearly as important as the portion below Bloor- Yonge, which would probably reroute closer to 10,000 PPHD.

You will be stealing more than 1,000PPHD from the Yonge Line north of Bloor if the line gets built to Steeles. No argument on south of Bloor. If the line stops a Eglinton, it will be more than 1,000 at any given hour of service.

Sheppard would be the high point beside Bloor with Eglinton being the 3rd location.

 

[Adjei]

You will be stealing more than 1,000PPHD from the Yonge Line north of Bloor if the line gets built to Steeles. No argument on south of Bloor. If the line stops a Eglinton, it will be more than 1,000 at any given hour of service.

Sheppard would be the high point beside Bloor with Eglinton being the 3rd location.

I think it should get built up to Finch which will serve Seneca college. Any further and York Region will demand that it be extended to Highway 7.

 

[BurlOak]

The Crosstown only handles 4,900 PPHD at it's heaviest point, which is supposedly going to be around Eglinton West. The DRL going up and stealing people from the yonge line would route MAYBE 1,000 PPHD away from Yonge if they were lucky. I agree that it should be built, but it isn't nearly as important as the portion below Bloor- Yonge, which would probably reroute closer to 10,000 PPHD.

If I recall correctly, the Crosstown was to have 12,000 pphpd when it was continuous with SRT. This gives an indication of how many passengers would want to use the line. Presumably, many of these would transfer to the DRL (at Don Mills), their first transfer. Those from lower Scarborough (probably a similar number to those on ECLRT) would make their first transfer to the DRL as well (at Pape).

The other option is to force all these northern Scarborough residents to transfer at Kennedy, and then make their second transfer to the DRL at a much more crowded Pape Station (10,000 pphpd in your example - i.e. 50% more than currently switch from Danforth WB to Yonge SB).

If designed properly, the Crosstown and DRL could do a good job in relieving Yonge.

 

[innsertnamehere]

yes that is nice and all, but the bottom line remains that it isn't going to be through run with the SRT (if the srt still even exists)

I agree with your model 100%, but it simply isn't realistic anymore. at initial buildout, the crosstown WILL handle 4,900 PPHD, and the SRT will run seperate. (if at all)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The other option is to force all these northern Scarborough residents to transfer at Kennedy, and then make their second transfer to the DRL at a much more crowded Pape Station (10,000 pphpd in your example - i.e. 50% more than currently switch from Danforth WB to Yonge SB).

Let's not play this game though, because in the current manifestation (i.e. BD extension), which is preferred by those in Scarborough, the majority of transfers would have to occur at Pape *anyways* even without forcing them to transfer at Kennedy.

AoD

 

[drum118]

I think it should get built up to Finch which will serve Seneca college. Any further and York Region will demand that it be extended to Highway 7.

They have already done that as well an EA for LRT. If it to be a subway they will be even happier as well redoing the EA for it.

 

[MisterF]

I think this is a bit optimistic. From what I understand the only routes GO is seriously considering electrifying are Kitchener and the Lakeshore lines. Even then, nothing is really funded or planned, so talking like this is something that's just around the corner is a bit misleading.

Second, even if electrification were to go through, GO doesn't seem to have any plans to intensify station spacing along any of its routes. This is a big issue since, even if we got one station on an electrified Lakeshore Line around Cherry street, who would use it? The next station out would be Danforth, so not exactly connecting two thriving transit destination. If you wanted to S-bahn-ize the GO network you'd probably have to build two or three dozen more stations across the 416 just to give people places to go.

As it currently is, it would be pretty much impossible for GO to deal with that kind of project. At least in the electrification study, all electrification implied was replacing Diesel-electric locomotives with electric locomotives. While this would probably yield some performance benefits, it's a very long shot from the EMU S-bahn systems. And as long as GO is stuck to running 12-car trains which can carry 2k people and cost tens of millions of dollars, there's no way service frequency will be more than 30m off peak. There's just not the ridership to justify it.

In the DRL study the TTC did, they considered a kind of Lakeshore shuttle service which would provide S-bahn-ish service along the Lakeshore corridor (frequent stations, frequent trains...). I forget the exact details but it wasn't a very simple undertaking and would have cost billions of dollars. I think it's highly unlikely Toronto will see Queen's Park or Ottawa basically gift us tens of billions of dollars to build two simultaneous E-W rapid transit corridors that run within a km of each other. My thinking is that, since the DRL will require a high capacity rapid transit corridor anyways, you might as well run commuter trains through it between Eglinton/Don Mills and Dundas West.

While it may not be funded, the Big Move does have plans for express service modeled on the kind of regional rail I'm talking about. And it also has plans for a traditional subway through the core, so it's not like the idea is farfetched. Wouldn't it be easier to implement those plans than try to build a subway in the wrong location? A DRL that tries to serve both types of demand wouldn't be very good at either.

 

[BurlOak]

yes that is nice and all, but the bottom line remains that it isn't going to be through run with the SRT (if the srt still even exists)

I agree with your model 100%, but it simply isn't realistic anymore. at initial buildout, the crosstown WILL handle 4,900 PPHD, and the SRT will run seperate. (if at all)

9 months ago, I was more confident the something good may come from the Crosstown - when tunnelled to Don Mills. But when Metrolinx was caught lying about the Ferrand stop (first impossible, then reinstated), they had lost some credibility and soon went back to the median West of Don Mills. Then it appeared things would be build as per Transit City.

I am a bit more confident that sanity will prevail now - but agree it is a longshot, but maybe not that much longer than the subway being built. In any case, I think nothing will be set in stone until after the next Provincial election. If Metrolinx proceeds with any ECLRT work (east of Brentcliffe) or any SRT work, they are just adding to the sunk costs that will eventually be considered wasted.

 

[innsertnamehere]

You are joking yourself if you think Hudak will elevate it. (If he even wins) he will likely bury it, wasting billions. Then waste a couple billion more by extending the bloor danforth subway to STC, and another couple billion on the Sheppard subway. Oh, and the DRL won't even be mentioned. That is of course if he doesn't just pull another eglinton subway on the whole damn thing.

 

[nfitz]

You are joking yourself if you think Hudak will elevate it. (If he even wins) he will likely bury it, wasting billions. Then waste a couple billion more by extending the bloor danforth subway to STC, and another couple billion on the Sheppard subway. Oh, and the DRL won't even be mentioned. That is of course if he doesn't just pull another eglinton subway on the whole damn thing.

Ah, you forgot the Yonge subway extension to York. Probably have to start running it express south of Sheppard to make sure that Torontonians don't use it to leave spaces for those up north.

 

[wolfewood]

I'm still not totally convinced the Liberals won't do exactly what we fear the Conservatives will do (or the NDP for that matter). The Liberals don't seem to care about the facts when they allow their plans to be changed by City Council each time the wind shifts direction, what's stopping them from making the exact worst-case scenario we've detailed here?

Getting back on topic for a second, I'm still not sold on a Don Mills originating DRL, I'd rather see a shorter DRL that serves the downtown population (directly replacing the streetcar route on King/Queen/whichever road it follows) while increasing the frequency and electrifying the GO network at the same time. I feel like actually building a RER network to fix the problems commuters are facing would work better than misusing subways like we have on the YUS and BD. Subways shouldn't be for long-run commutes imo, they should be focused on serving dense areas where surface networks can no longer keep up with the numbers of people trying to move through.