ericmacm said:
Interesting. This doesn’t initially seem to make a ton of sense on the surface, given that Rogers Centre has a very similar concert capacity, and that Livenation has plans to upgrade Budweiser Stage into a larger venue.

However, here’s some food for thought - in wake of the Rogers purchase of Bell’s MLSE shares, and with Rogers on track to own the entirety of MLSE in 2026, the media has been suggesting that Edward Rogers is very interested in owning an NFL team (something Rogers has been working toward over the past decade) and suggested that this could be the next step after a likely spinoff and IPO of MLSE.

Obviously, the construction of an NFL-sized stadium is a huge investment to make up-front. You would want to get a good idea of whether or not you can make use of that stadium outside of the 8 or 9 NFL home games each season, and there’s obviously a bit of uncertainty given the presence of so many other venues in Toronto. Building a temporary 50,000-seat concert venue and seeing how many events you can fill it with for 5 years seems like an excellent way to test the waters for a slightly larger permanent stadium down the road. Downsview would also be the ideal location for such a thing. Rogers’ involvement in this makes me suspicious. Northcrest also includes “culture and entertainment” as part of the vision for the YZD development which makes me more suspicious.

We will obviously have to see how this plays out, but there is definitely something bigger going on here.
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It is interesting, definitely. Michael Grange, who is a good reporter AND works for Rogers, wrote in a recent article that Ed Rogers may pursue the NFL next. There has been seemingly zero momentum on Toronto and the NFL since Tanenbaum/Leiweke/Bon Jovi failed to purchase the Bills (10ish years ago?). But hey, if you have someone willing to buy a team and build a stadium, things can change.
 
JMSRead said:
It is interesting, definitely. Michael Grange, who is a good reporter AND works for Rogers, wrote in a recent article that Ed Rogers may pursue the NFL next. There has been seemingly zero momentum on Toronto and the NFL since Tanenbaum/Leiweke/Bon Jovi failed to purchase the Bills (10ish years ago?). But hey, if you have someone willing to buy a team and build a stadium, things can change.
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I concur with the above assessments that this is an interesting development. When I first came across the headlines, I was wondering if this was a serious proposal, like when Premier Ford proposed a tunnel running underneath the 401.

Speaking of potentially luring the NFL to Toronto, I thought about such an idea upon encountering this article from September 19 about Rogers purchasing Bell's stake in MLSE, and what implications that could have for the Argos:

The temporary stadium being marketed for summer use also makes sense because it would address scheduling conflicts between concerts and Blue Jays games.
 
JMSRead said:
It is interesting, definitely. Michael Grange, who is a good reporter AND works for Rogers, wrote in a recent article that Ed Rogers may pursue the NFL next. There has been seemingly zero momentum on Toronto and the NFL since Tanenbaum/Leiweke/Bon Jovi failed to purchase the Bills (10ish years ago?). But hey, if you have someone willing to buy a team and build a stadium, things can change.
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The public momentum has certainly gone away, but I’m sure the interest from Ed Rogers has not. Getting an NFL team would make him the largest sports owner in the world, and cement Toronto as one of the most important sports markets in the world. The relocations of the Raiders, Chargers, and Rams in the subsequent years after the failed Bills purchase were squarely targeting LA and Vegas from the get-go, so there was little opportunity for Rogers/MLSE to weasel their way into the process. Toronto was apparently a backup option for the Rams if their move to LA was not approved. It is difficult to say if any other teams could potentially relocate. The Jaguars and Panthers have both solidified their stadium plans, and no other teams seem to be in danger of leaving. That being said, I think expansion is on the radar - the league is not planning on making the seasons any longer, so speculatively, if they want to add more games, they will have to add more teams. It was reported a few years ago that the NFL was exploring going as high as 40 teams, but obviously we will have to wait and see if they ever move in this direction.

ImmenselyMental said:
I concur with the above assessments that this is an interesting development. When I first came across the headlines, I was wondering if this was a serious proposal, like when Premier Ford proposed a tunnel running underneath the 401.

Speaking of potentially luring the NFL to Toronto, I thought about such an idea upon encountering this article from September 19 about Rogers purchasing Bell's stake in MLSE, and what implications that could have for the Argos:

The temporary stadium being marketed for summer use also makes sense because it would address scheduling conflicts between concerts and Blue Jays games.
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It is really difficult to say what ultimately happens to the CFL if the NFL enters Canada. While the Argos are the oldest professional team in North America, and there is value to retaining that accolade, they need to figure out their attendance and marketing issues, but this is also a problem in the league that is not necessarily unique to Toronto. However, I don’t think that the groups of people in Ontario that watch the CFL and NFL overlap very much, so maybe there is room for both to exist.
 
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An expansion team will probably be in the 8 to 10 billion dollar range. Toronto doesn't support high school football. It doesn't support college football. It is debatable whether it supports CFL football. The one thing Toronto supports is betting on Football which doesn't require a local team. An NFL would do very well but, once everyone has a selfie or two, support will drop unless it's a serious bandwagon contender.
 
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I wonder about the viability of American football outside the US in 2024 as it seems increasingly irrelevant. What would intrigue me is a cricket stadium as that seems to have a future! Btw from what I know about NFL stadiums is that they are 90% public money and I don’t see that getting buy-in.

And I remember that they couldn’t give tickets away when the NFL had exhibition games here and was a huge embarrassment for them. 🤣
 
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rdaner said:
I wonder about the viability of American football outside the US in 2024 as it seems increasingly irrelevant. What would intrigue me is a cricket stadium as that seems to have a future! Btw from what I know about NFL stadiums is that they are 90% public money and I don’t see that getting buy-in.

And I remember that they couldn’t give tickets away when the NFL had exhibition games here and was a huge embarrassment for them. 🤣
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I dunno. At my work there’s a crazy amount of nfl fans. I E actually started to watch some.
 
maestro said:
An expansion team will probably be in the 8 to 10 billion dollar range. Toronto doesn't support high school football. It doesn't support college football. It is debatable whether it supports CFL football. The one thing Toronto supports is betting on Football which doesn't require a local team. An NFL would do very well but, once everyone has a selfie or two, support will drop unless it's a serious bandwagon contender.
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This is the critical part. Toronto has, historically, had tepid support for the Argos. I say this as a past and current season ticket holder. Interest goes up every few years, then dies back down. The Bills in Toronto followed a similar trajectory.

It's not that the NFL couldn't theoretically work here, it's that there are already NFL fans in Toronto despite there being no team. A Toronto NFL team is not bringing new eyeballs to the league. Whereas a team in London or Mexico City is likely to grow the game.
 
ericmacm said:
The public momentum has certainly gone away, but I’m sure the interest from Ed Rogers has not. Getting an NFL team would make him the largest sports owner in the world, and cement Toronto as one of the most important sports markets in the world. The relocations of the Raiders, Chargers, and Rams in the subsequent years after the failed Bills purchase were squarely targeting LA and Vegas from the get-go, so there was little opportunity for Rogers/MLSE to weasel their way into the process. Toronto was apparently a backup option for the Rams if their move to LA was not approved.

It is difficult to say if any other teams could potentially relocate. The Jaguars and Panthers have both solidified their stadium plans, and no other teams seem to be in danger of leaving. That being said, I think expansion is on the radar - the league is not planning on making the seasons any longer, so speculatively, if they want to add more games, they will have to add more teams. It was reported a few years ago that the NFL was exploring going as high as 40 teams, but obviously we will have to wait and see if they ever move in this direction.


It is really difficult to say what ultimately happens to the CFL if the NFL enters Canada. While the Argos are the oldest professional team in North America, and there is value to retaining that accolade, they need to figure out their attendance and marketing issues, but this is also a problem in the league that is not necessarily unique to Toronto. However, I don’t think that the groups of people in Ontario that watch the CFL and NFL overlap very much, so maybe there is room for both to exist.
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Although this discussion about the NFL is probably better suited for another thread, it is still an interesting one that is worth having.

One team that I had on my mind when I wrote my post was the Chiefs. Voters rejected a sales tax measure for renovating their existing stadium earlier this year, and subsequent proposals were also defeated, providing an opportunity for various entities (most notably the state of Kansas) to try to lure them. If I remember correctly, someone suggested in an article that Toronto could be one option for relocation.

As for the Argos, while they have certainly been treated as an afterthought by the public (relative to MLSE's other teams and the Blue Jays), attendance seems to be increasing over the years, and MLSE seems to be advertising them more than before. Having a rivalry with the Tiger-Cats also appeared to have boosted their attendance in their most recent game.

T-Bor said:
This is the critical part. Toronto has, historically, had tepid support for the Argos. I say this as a past and current season ticket holder. Interest goes up every few years, then dies back down. The Bills in Toronto followed a similar trajectory.

It's not that the NFL couldn't theoretically work here, it's that there are already NFL fans in Toronto despite there being no team. A Toronto NFL team is not bringing new eyeballs to the league. Whereas a team in London or Mexico City is likely to grow the game.
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If the league were to add a team here, would the existing fans switch to the new team?
 
ImmenselyMental said:
Although this discussion about the NFL is probably better suited for another thread, it is still an interesting one that is worth having.

One team that I had on my mind when I wrote my post was the Chiefs. Voters rejected a sales tax measure for renovating their existing stadium earlier this year, and subsequent proposals were also defeated, providing an opportunity for various entities (most notably the state of Kansas) to try to lure them. If I remember correctly, someone suggested in an article that Toronto could be one option for relocation.

As for the Argos, while they have certainly been treated as an afterthought by the public (relative to MLSE's other teams and the Blue Jays), attendance seems to be increasing over the years, and MLSE seems to be advertising them more than before. Having a rivalry with the Tiger-Cats also appeared to have boosted their attendance in their most recent game.


If the league were to add a team here, would the existing fans switch to the new team?
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Good point about the sales tax measure. Nearly every other NFL stadium build/refurb has had a very large dose of public money. I can't see any world where voters would be okay giving public money to a billionaire to build a sports complex. And Rogers spending upwards of $8B on a team, land, and stadium could be super risky
 
In no way can this be called a stadium. It is an outdoor concert stage flanked by high-capacity bleachers that can be erected and taken down in mere weeks which is why they say it will be ready for the 2025 concert season.
 
rdaner said:
I wonder about the viability of American football outside the US in 2024 as it seems increasingly irrelevant. What would intrigue me is a cricket stadium as that seems to have a future! Btw from what I know about NFL stadiums is that they are 90% public money and I don’t see that getting buy-in.

And I remember that they couldn’t give tickets away when the NFL had exhibition games here and was a huge embarrassment for them. 🤣
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Believe it or not, the NFL is the 2nd-most followed league in Canada, behind the NHL of course. Some statistics from last year show that the NFL is making serious inroads in Canada especially with younger generations and in eastern Canada, eclipsing the CFL in popularity. Anecdotally, lots of people I know watch the NFL. We are a Lions household over here and we started following more intently this year. I know lots of people that follow various other teams as well (Bucs, Bears, Seahawks, and lots of other Lions fans), but no Bills fans funny enough.

As for hypothetical financing of a team/stadium, I could see it done without any public funding. MLSE is now worth $12.5B CAD, and will most likely be valued even higher once Tanenbaum gets bought out in 2026. A future IPO of 49% of the shares (leaving Rogers with 51% controlling ownership) would probably fetch enough money to cover an expansion fee and maybe a portion of stadium construction. Nobody really knows what the expansion fee would be at this time, but it was pegged at a suspected $3-5B USD in 2022 (probably ~$5B now given the rough median NFL team valuation).

To top this all off, someone even asked Doug Ford at the press conference earlier about the suitability of Downsview for the NFL and said “I believe so”, not that it necessarily means anything though.
 
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ericmacm said:
Believe it or not, the NFL is the 2nd-most followed league in Canada, behind the NHL of course. Some statistics from last year show that the NFL is making serious inroads in Canada especially with younger generations and in eastern Canada, eclipsing the CFL in popularity. Anecdotally, lots of people I know watch the NFL. We are a Lions household over here and we started following more intently this year. I know lots of people that follow various other teams as well (Bucs, Bears, Seahawks, and lots of other Lions fans), but no Bills fans funny enough.

As for hypothetical financing of a team/stadium, I could see it done without any public funding. MLSE is now worth $12.5B CAD, and will most likely be valued even higher once Tanenbaum gets bought out in 2026. A future IPO of 49% of the shares (leaving Rogers with 51% controlling ownership) would probably fetch enough money to cover an expansion fee and maybe a portion of stadium construction. Nobody really knows what the expansion fee would be at this time, but it was pegged at a suspected $3-5B USD in 2022 (probably ~$5B now given the rough median NFL team valuation).

To top this all off, someone even asked Doug Ford at the press conference earlier about the suitability of Downsview for the NFL and said “I believe so”, not that it necessarily means anything though.
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I think they could make a go of it, potentially, though it begs the question of why no other existing NFL team owner is skipping the $5B expansion fee and just building a stadium to move a team to Toronto
 
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