[micheal_can]

Combine 1 with 77, 16 with 85, and 4 with 25 as starters since they are the main 3 east/west routes (Highway 7, 16th Ave/Rutherford, and Major Mackenzie Dr). At least the north/south routes are all pretty much connected in the southern portion.

YRT's coverage area is basically a grid. What should happen is there should be buses that simply run along the concession and side roads. Maybe expandingt he VIVA routes. Then they should have other buses that go into the various subdivisions within those grids. As those subdivisions get rebuilt into denser subdivisions, those bus routes could be changed to suit the needs.

 

[Neutrino]

We hear a lot about employment being more important for generating ridership than residential density. Okay. But isn't the problem with suburban business parks that many are low density and difficult to serve with higher order transit? In other words, the same problem as low density residential areas face with respect to transit. Look at a satellite image of the area around VMC station - low rise offices and industrial areas for miles. Realistically, the subway station can only serve the 10-15 minute walk radius while the rest flounders (unless there's a good local bus network). Is the solution to densify suburban business parks around higher order transit? Maybe, but then we run into the second "many" of the "many to many" problem because the residential density is still low and few people have easy/convenient access to aforementioned higher order transit (again, local buses seem to be somewhat of a solution). One solution may to be to add high density residential in and around high density suburban business parks like Lesmill, Vic Park-Steeles etc. In fact, UT reported on a major proposed condo development near the Lesmill park. The prospect of high density mixed use areas excites me greatly because this may be a way forward for our low density employment areas. These nodes could generate considerable ridership and people could also live within walking distance of their work.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We hear a lot about employment being more important for generating ridership than residential density. Okay. But isn't the problem with suburban business parks that many are low density and difficult to serve with higher order transit? In other words, the same problem as low density residential areas face with respect to transit. Look at a satellite image of the area around VMC station - low rise offices and industrial areas for miles. Realistically, the subway station can only serve the 10-15 minute walk radius while the rest flounders (unless there's a good local bus network). Is the solution to densify suburban business parks around higher order transit? Maybe, but then we run into the second "many" of the "many to many" problem because the residential density is still low and few people have easy/convenient access to aforementioned higher order transit (again, local buses seem to be somewhat of a solution). One solution may to be to add high density residential in and around high density suburban business parks like Lesmill, Vic Park-Steeles etc. In fact, UT reported on a major proposed condo development at the Lesmill park. The prospect of high density mixed use areas excites me greatly because this may be a way forward for our low density employment areas. Create enough of these nodes - and who knows, people could live close to their work and we could build transit routes with these nodes.

The solution to generating subway-level ridership in the suburbs in a network of frequent and fast bus routes, as we have in Toronto. Many of Toronto's most used stations are in the least dense areas of the city.

The idea of adding high density commercial and residential to office parks does excite me. Along the Relief Line Long route in particular, there is a lot of potential for lands to be unlocked for this purposes. However, the justification for a transit expansion should never be only the potential for development to materialize in the future. The demand should already be there, and any development that occurs should just be a bonus. Otherwise we have a recipe for wasting billions of dollars.

 

[Richard White]

But isn't the problem with suburban business parks that many are low density and difficult to serve with higher order transit?

I noticed this around Jane and 7 years ago (and still to this day) you have plenty of small warehouse like stores around Edgeley Blvd in the area of VMC. Plenty of low rise buildings and small industrial warehouses but nothing in the realm of demanding a subway. I doubt you can take slabs of granite on the subway. Even in Richmond Hill you have primarily low rise office buildings.

I wonder if this is a zoning thing or demand. No sense in building a large office tower that will just end up like MARS.

 

[Richard White]

However, the justification for a transit expansion should never be only the potential for development to materialize in the future. The demand should already be there, and any development that occurs should just be a bonus. Otherwise we have a recipe for wasting billions of dollars.

To that end subways take a decade to build in Ontario. It is better to plan for future development than to build it after things are completed. As the saying goes, better now than 10 years too late.

It is a case of the chicken and the egg but essentially nobody will build a large scale development that is not easily accessed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

To that end subways take a decade to build in Ontario. It is better to plan for future development than to build it after things are completed. As the saying goes, better now than 10 years too late.

It is a case of the chicken and the egg but essentially nobody will build a large scale development that is not easily accessed.

Build to accommodate future development, sure. But don't build because of potential for future development. Crosstown LRT, Relief Line Short and Relief Line Long aren't being build because of potential for future development, but they can certainly accommodate redevelopment (and indeed there are large scale redevelopment occurring because of those projects).

Conversely, projects such as the Spadina Subway Extension (specifically north of Vaughan) and the Sheppard Subway were built solely for the purpose of attracting development, with little to no exiting subway-level demand to speak of. This makes those investments a lot more risky in nature.

 

[Richard White]

Conversely, projects such as the Spadina Subway Extension (specifically north of Vaughan) and the Sheppard Subway were built solely for the purpose of attracting development, with little to no exiting subway-level demand to speak of. This makes those investments a lot more risky in nature.

To be fair a ton of condos have sprung up along Sheppard and stations like Leslie have far more development around it now than they did in 2004. Even Bessarion is getting a MEC.

 

[LNahid2000]

To be fair a ton of condos have sprung up along Sheppard and stations like Leslie have far more development around it now than they did in 2004. Even Bessarion is getting a MEC.

Yet this area still isn't pedestrian friendly at all, and most of the people in these condos drive outside of rush hour.

 

[Richard White]

Yet this area still isn't pedestrian friendly at all, and most of the people in these condos drive outside of rush hour.

That is true however that is driven primarily by the gap between stations. I have walked between Yonge and Bayview and it is not exactly close together. They had planned on building a Willowdale Station and even roughed it in but it was never built due to local opposition. Don Mills to Leslie is just as long as the walk between Yonge and Bayview.

Had they built Willowdale Station there would be more foot traffic but for the Sheppard line to attract more passengers they need to run a more frequent local bus service because in weather like today nobody will walk to a station given the distance.

 

[11th]

Yet this area still isn't pedestrian friendly at all, and most of the people in these condos drive outside of rush hour.

You will have to take a look at where and what people in those condo go/do outside of work. Very few of those are done in the downtown core. Why would anyone not drive if they are going to anywhere in southern York Region and it's easily a 1 : 3 ratio travel time between driving and transit.

 

[Neutrino]

Agreed with @11th. From what I've seen using line 4 in AM, PM rush as well as midday and evening, very few people board at Leslie and Bessarion, especially Bessarion.

 

[Streety McCarface]

To be fair a ton of condos have sprung up along Sheppard and stations like Leslie have far more development around it now than they did in 2004. Even Bessarion is getting a MEC.

Yet this area still isn't pedestrian friendly at all, and most of the people in these condos drive outside of rush hour.

Again, Sheppard is really interesting because Don Mills has a bunch of connecting routes and is at subway level usages. I'd go as far to argue that Bayview is also really close if not at subway level usages as well. Sheppard would have been much better if it was built as a cut-and-cover. This way, since everything would be ripped out, people would move out of there homes which would allow developers to better use the land after the construction, bettering streetscape and building bike lanes. They could still do this now by removing 2 lanes and putting in cycle tracks and wider sidewalks. If that doesn't attract small businesses and developers, I don't know what will.

You will have to take a look at where and what people in those condo go/do outside of work. Very few of those are done in the downtown core. Why would anyone not drive if they are going to anywhere in southern York Region and it's easily a 1 : 3 ratio travel time between driving and transit.

If you live within a 10-minute walk of any subway station along Sheppard, I can guarantee you that driving is almost twice as long and 5-10* as much, depending on the type of car you drive and where you park. With the subway, it's the 5-10 minute walk to the station, 30-40 minutes on the subway, and you're in the core maybe another 5 minute streetcar ride or another 10 minute walk. Anywhere else, it's the 10-minute drive to the DVP, the 40 minutes travelling down the DVP if there's no accident or if lanes aren't closed, then another 10 minutes down the Gardiner, 10-15 through downtown, and 10-20 finding parking. All in all, you've used 5 litres of Gas, used a car, and stressed yourself out significantly, paid 20 dollars for parking, etc.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Agreed with @11th. From what I've seen using line 4 in AM, PM rush as well as midday and evening, very few people board at Leslie and Bessarion, especially Bessarion.

Concord park place was initially built closer to Leslie than Bessarion. Now that buildings are moving west of the Canadian Tire, ridership will increase significantly there.

 

[adrianaliu]

I think by 2031, VMC will resemble Mississauga City Centre, but without the mall. Building the city centre around a mall is supposedly Hazel's Biggest Regret, so this is basically what Mississauga wishes it's city centre was like.

Mississauga City Centre was built there cuz of the 403 and mall, without serious consideration for mass transit. VMC will be better off imo its one of the most well connected areas of the gta right now. 2 highways subway and brt, yeah yrt has gotta step up there service but that will come with time.

 

[Neutrino]

Again, Sheppard is really interesting because Don Mills has a bunch of connecting routes and is at subway level usages. I'd go as far to argue that Bayview is also really close if not at subway level usages as well. Sheppard would have been much better if it was built as a cut-and-cover. This way, since everything would be ripped out, people would move out of there homes which would allow developers to better use the land after the construction, bettering streetscape and building bike lanes. They could still do this now by removing 2 lanes and putting in cycle tracks and wider sidewalks. If that doesn't attract small businesses and developers, I don't know what will.

I doubt bike lanes and wide sidewalks on their own would suffice. Aren't tax breaks the way municipalities attract businesses? Besides, if businesses are opening suburban locations, they would need parking anyhow, unless the entire area is being massively redeveloped with a lot of high density residential (and maybe not even then). Congestion on Sheppard between Yonge and Don Mills is already pretty bad in the PM peak, so I would not remove lanes without giving drivers viable transit options.

If you live within a 10-minute walk of any subway station along Sheppard, I can guarantee you that driving is almost twice as long and 5-10* as much, depending on the type of car you drive and where you park. With the subway, it's the 5-10 minute walk to the station, 30-40 minutes on the subway, and you're in the core maybe another 5 minute streetcar ride or another 10 minute walk. Anywhere else, it's the 10-minute drive to the DVP, the 40 minutes travelling down the DVP if there's no accident or if lanes aren't closed, then another 10 minutes down the Gardiner, 10-15 through downtown, and 10-20 finding parking. All in all, you've used 5 litres of Gas, used a car, and stressed yourself out significantly, paid 20 dollars for parking, etc.

He was referring to commuters living around Line 4 who commute north to York Region, not downtown.