[Amphibius]

You're still confused. All of the employment zones, Vaughan Mills, Wonderland, etc., will be served by the subway + bus routes. In the real world, people take buses and we don't need to build LRT to lure them to transit. They will take the subway extension to Hwy 7 and then take a bus to Wonderland or wherever else. It's just silly for you to slam the subway extension because there's nothing in the area and then extoll the virtues of the *same area* in support of LRT...and Vaughan can still build LRT on Jane north of Hwy 7, especially since there's nothing on Jane south of Hwy 7 in Vaughan, so there's no need for a continuous line along Jane paralleling the subway.

I just had to highlight that part of your quote to illustrate the irrelevancy of the Vaughan extension period. In the real world, people take buses and we don't need to build HRT to lure them to transit. People are just as capable to take buses down from Hwy 7 and Edgeley to Steeles West Stn (originally slated to house 37 bus bays). In fact, given the low density between Steeles and 7 (virtually no need to stop in-between, sans IKEA), the bus/BRT will likely acheive travel times the same as travelling underground. Only diff, it won't cost us half a billion to facilitate it, as it already exists.

The 360 Maple Express bus can operate out of Steeles West Stn now which directly serves Vaughan Mills, Wonderland and downtown Maple. It amazes me time and again how folks can overlook the most benign solutions yet opt for the most expensive, least warranted ones. The subway has to stop somewhere. York University at least would have year-round high volumes of commuter traffic through it to justify its terminus status vaildity.

 

[Dan416]

The VCC extension is quite logical. Land use planning policies have been developed and are still being refined to build around the extension in an area that can be built at higher densities. Because of the amount of land that is currently undeveloped, there can be densities greater than what currently exists in MCC and SCC. There's a lot more growth potential around VCC than MCC and SCC for employment and residential uses.

What would be ridiculous is to have the subway stop at Steeles West and let the undeveloped land in VCC be turned into more big box stores and single-storey office buildings. That way more people can get into their cars and clog our roads even more. And since there will be no more land around Jane and Hwy 7, future office and employment growth can just continue to go up along Hwys 400 and 404, like the new Honda HQ north of Elgin Mills adjacent to the 404.

First, your argument is ludicrous. You say there's no room to at MCC and SCC? I can't really speak for SCC, but at MCC there is a LOT of undeveloped land. And all the land that IS being developed is at high density. I wholly refute your argument about more "growth potential" at VCC. VCC has more greenfields. Yes, that's a reason to build a subway there. You know what, I'm sure Mono Mills has more greenfields than VCC. More "potential" there.

Moving on, if the subway stopped at Steeles West, VCC would turn into more big box stores and single storey office buildings? IIRC isn't that what's there now? And why would a much closer subway make the planning that much crappier? It's the city that zones and plans what goes there, not the fact that a subway goes there. Look along the length of the current Spadina line! Mississauga City Centre is one of the busiest trip generators in the GTA, yet it doesn't even have a subway connection, so what exactly does that tell you about your theory?

Where do Eglinton, DRL and Queen figure in on that? Higher or lower than VCC? I'm curious.

In the current situation, I don't see both a DRL AND a Queen line being built currently. In the future, I would like both, but for now, we have to choose one, and I'd choose DRL 100 times over. Queen already has the Queen streetcar. King is busier anyway.

#1 is DRL for sure. #2 is Eglinton (remember this is the subway line that was previously started) #3 would be STC (via Danforth subway and Sheppard subway) #4 MTC #5 RHC #6 VCC

There may be some disagreement of whether #4 or #5 get built, and I think that just stems from where people live. But I'd settle with the first three (i.e. not having to leave the 416).

 

[marcus_a_j]

First, your argument is ludicrous. You say there's no room to at MCC and SCC? I can't really speak for SCC, but at MCC there is a LOT of undeveloped land. And all the land that IS being developed is at high density. I wholly refute your argument about more "growth potential" at VCC. VCC has more greenfields. Yes, that's a reason to build a subway there. You know what, I'm sure Mono Mills has more greenfields than VCC. More "potential" there.

Moving on, if the subway stopped at Steeles West, VCC would turn into more big box stores and single storey office buildings? IIRC isn't that what's there now? And why would a much closer subway make the planning that much crappier? It's the city that zones and plans what goes there, not the fact that a subway goes there. Look along the length of the current Spadina line! Mississauga City Centre is one of the busiest trip generators in the GTA, yet it doesn't even have a subway connection, so what exactly does that tell you about your theory?

I never said there was no land left to develop in MCC and SCC. Let's keep SCC out of this, and look at your precious MCC. Sure there's a few plots of land undeveloped, but the rest are parking lots. It's not like Downtown T.O. where you can rip up a parking lot taking up a 1/4 city block and build a condo. In MCC, you have to find a way to deal with all the cars that drive there. Sure, a form of rapid transit will help a little bit (but not an extension of the B-D subway, stick to something along Hurontario between Port Credit and Brampton), but it's not going to solve everything.

Have you ever been to VCC? There's lots of growth potential. And I wouldn't necessarily call it greenfield development, but more infill development. I already said there's great opportunity for higher densities and intensification, b/c of the subway, which the City is planning around and putting the zoning and OP designations in place in support of it. If the extension were to stop at Steeles, then I would question whether or not the City would be doing this, thus allowing for low-density office/retail uses.

If you want to refute my arguments, then fine, but they're based on the policies and objectives from the Province and Region. Ever heard of Places to Grow or an Official Plan?

 

[Epi]

I never said there was no land left to develop in MCC and SCC. Let's keep SCC out of this, and look at your precious MCC. Sure there's a few plots of land undeveloped, but the rest are parking lots. It's not like Downtown T.O. where you can rip up a parking lot taking up a 1/4 city block and build a condo. In MCC, you have to find a way to deal with all the cars that drive there. Sure, a form of rapid transit will help a little bit (but not an extension of the B-D subway, stick to something along Hurontario between Port Credit and Brampton), but it's not going to solve everything.

Have you ever been to VCC? There's lots of growth potential. And I wouldn't necessarily call it greenfield development, but more infill development. I already said there's great opportunity for higher densities and intensification, b/c of the subway, which the City is planning around and putting the zoning and OP designations in place in support of it. If the extension were to stop at Steeles, then I would question whether or not the City would be doing this, thus allowing for low-density office/retail uses.

If you want to refute my arguments, then fine, but they're based on the policies and objectives from the Province and Region. Ever heard of Places to Grow or an Official Plan?

A subway stop does not a downtown make.

There's a lot of reasons for a community to be very urban, not have open parking lots and be very dense, but having 1 terminal subway stop really doesn't fix that.

If you move to live in Vaughan, you will have a car. Honestly, there's no way VCC will get built without a ton of parking lots. Each office building will have parking lots for the majority of their workers who drive there. Each condo will have lots of parking lots for people to drive to get groceries and so on. It's a chicken and egg problem. People aren't going to move there at first if they can't easily drive because there isn't a critical mass to have good community services. Because they need to drive, then infrastructure for driving needs to be built and affordable (open air parking lots vastly cheaper than underground lots, you can bet developers will be fighting tooth and nail for this).

Furthermore, there are no destinations to go to in that area. If people want to do anything interesting there, they'd drive. If they really wanted to go downtown all the time for everything (by taking subway) they'd move downtown instead. Also all the major retail in that area is too far to walk to and has huge parking lots (i.e. all those power centers in that area). Yet another reason to ensure that the car is king in the area.

Sure some people will use the subway, and for sure some will benefit. But is it really necessary and not just a massive waste of money considering a bus could do the same? I think so.

The area really isn't a desirable area to live in no matter what. High congestion, industrial zone, tons of trucks, and super car oriented development current available with nothing else of note nearby. It's hardly going to be the model community it wants to be, not for a very, very, very long time. They can build a subway then if they really feel it's necessary.

 

[Second_in_pie]

In the current situation, I don't see both a DRL AND a Queen line being built currently. In the future, I would like both, but for now, we have to choose one, and I'd choose DRL 100 times over. Queen already has the Queen streetcar. King is busier anyway.

#1 is DRL for sure. #2 is Eglinton (remember this is the subway line that was previously started) #3 would be STC (via Danforth subway and Sheppard subway) #4 MTC #5 RHC #6 VCC

There may be some disagreement of whether #4 or #5 get built, and I think that just stems from where people live. But I'd settle with the first three (i.e. not having to leave the 416).

That seems logical to me.

Hopefully, the core will develop along the Waterfront, and development in the core along the waterfront would basically put a whole bunch of density right along Queen, so it might be warranted in a (long) while. Right now though, it's probably around 20th on the line in terms of Subway development.

 

[marcus_a_j]

A subway stop does not a downtown make.

There's a lot of reasons for a community to be very urban, not have open parking lots and be very dense, but having 1 terminal subway stop really doesn't fix that.

If you move to live in Vaughan, you will have a car. Honestly, there's no way VCC will get built without a ton of parking lots. Each office building will have parking lots for the majority of their workers who drive there. Each condo will have lots of parking lots for people to drive to get groceries and so on. It's a chicken and egg problem. People aren't going to move there at first if they can't easily drive because there isn't a critical mass to have good community services. Because they need to drive, then infrastructure for driving needs to be built and affordable (open air parking lots vastly cheaper than underground lots, you can bet developers will be fighting tooth and nail for this).

Furthermore, there are no destinations to go to in that area. If people want to do anything interesting there, they'd drive. If they really wanted to go downtown all the time for everything (by taking subway) they'd move downtown instead. Also all the major retail in that area is too far to walk to and has huge parking lots (i.e. all those power centers in that area). Yet another reason to ensure that the car is king in the area.

Sure some people will use the subway, and for sure some will benefit. But is it really necessary and not just a massive waste of money considering a bus could do the same? I think so.

The area really isn't a desirable area to live in no matter what. High congestion, industrial zone, tons of trucks, and super car oriented development current available with nothing else of note nearby. It's hardly going to be the model community it wants to be, not for a very, very, very long time. They can build a subway then if they really feel it's necessary.

There are lots of cities of equal size that have downtown's without a subway station. Many are urban and vibrant as well.

Of course there will be parking, and probably lots, but not as much as you would think. Some residential development proposals that I've seen are aiming for 1.05 spaces/unit (1.0 residnets and 0.05 visitors) around VCC, whereas the standard in Vaughan traditionally would be at least 1.5. Only the City of Toronto has standards that low (even lower in the core though). And they are all underground.

True, the City is dominated by the automobile and VCC currently is very hostile to anyone not in an armoured vehicle, but the City has a vision of changing that and everyone should at the very least hope they succeed. Only time will tell whether or not it will, and myself I am skeptical as well because of the current conditions you have mentioned (with the trucks being a major hurdle no matter how you slice it). But hey, the City and Region believe it can work and as the saying goes, they are putting their money where their mouth is.

Subways can attract far more investments in land development than LRT systems and especially bus systems. It will also attract higher ridership levels. Throw in a dedicated bus lanes on Hwy 7 feeding into VCC and the subway and you've already got a solid foundation to attract higher density development and ridership potential. Hell, toss BRT or LRT on Jane between and VCC and Major Mac and all coordinates are covered. With these in place attitudes and travel habits may actually change. I believe that's one of the objectives for sustainable development and transportation systems.

 

[Epi]

Well Marcus, I hope you're right. I for one have lost a lot of faith in the Vaughan government. They seem intent on paving over every last bit of greenspace for subdivisions and crappy strip malls. Not to mention the endless corruption scandals at city hall. The planning in my city of Vaughan leaves much to be desired. Well then again at least we're not Mississauga where the roads are twice as wide and a 'downtown' of condos can be built without any ground level retail!

 

[marcus_a_j]

Very true. You and I are on the same page, I just have a little bit more optimism, yet still fending off the little voice in the back of my head called reality. I appreciate having a friendly debate with someone who understands the present conditions and doesn't whine about one city getting a subway over another

 

[gweed123]

I think in the case of Vaughan (as is the case with most suburban municipalities), it's the "prestige" of having a subway more than anything that drives the policy. "We want a subway, so let's make a set of land use policies around that to justify it". Some of the time this want is actually justifiable, some of the time it's just a "we have it better" contest. The same thing happend in the 70s and 80s. Etobicoke wanted a subway, Scarborough had to get one too.

While I do believe suburban subway expansion is important for a number of reasons (none the least to promote nodal densification in an otherwise droning sea of suburbia), the City of Toronto should be more focused on improving transit in its rapidly densifying core (let's face it, CityPlace alone will have more density then VCC most likely ever will). It's no secret that people who live downtown will be more willing to use transit, and expanding the rapid transit network in the area immediately around downtown, especially south of Bloor (*cough* DRL *cough*) will dramatically increase the effectiveness of the densification. Spend the transit dollars, which in most cases are hard to come by, on places where people want to and actually will use transit. Once you've done that, THEN you can focus on the suburban regions who want subway for the sake of saying "we have a subway".

 

[xtremesniper]

Spend the transit dollars, which in most cases are hard to come by, on places where people want to and actually will use transit. Once you've done that, THEN you can focus on the suburban regions who want subway for the sake of saying "we have a subway".

I'm not too sure if that's something that should be followed religiously... I do understand that in our situation (our governments have pretty much hated on transit developments for years) the DRL should have happened years ago, and improvements to the core transit infrastructure should be improved too... But keep in mind that every time there is some sort of improvement announced in Toronto, a bunch of people and businesses come out of the woodwork to protest and bash the idea into oblivion. And then it never happens, and the TTC gets the blame.

Regardless, my reasoning for not 100% focusing on downtown before expanding into the suburbs is simply because the projects that they are working on (Spadina and Yonge extensions for example) are happening not just for the sake of saying "we have a subway". It's because the subway can be in place at the same time, or even before drastic changes to the areas it affects take place.

People always say you have to have transit in place before people move in, otherwise they'll never get out of their cars, right? Well here's our chance. Instead of hating on the suburbs for being a car obsessed region, people have to give them a chance to actually become transit users. The region is only car obsessed because there hasn't been an alternative for a long time. Only recently with the introduction of Viva and the upcoming VivaNext are people in the region starting to embrace transit. Ridership has been going up significantly every year. I'd say that's a success story, wouldn't you?

So my point is, you can't just put other areas on the back burner until the core is improved, because let's face it... York Region is just so much more efficient at getting things done. By the time the DRL is approved, both subway extensions will have been opened for service, and the Viva BRT would be complete. Complain to your city council for being a bunch of lazy butts.

 

[gweed123]

But keep in mind that every time there is some sort of improvement announced in Toronto, a bunch of people and businesses come out of the woodwork to protest and bash the idea into oblivion. And then it never happens, and the TTC gets the blame.

Traditionally (and it was even worse with Metro council), it was suburban councillors who had their own interests in mind who vetoed anything for the downtown core.

And yes I do agree that you need to have transit before people move in, but I don't think it's fair to blame Toronto council for being "lazy" while suburban councils (particularly Vaughan) have been worse than lazy: they've been self-interested and corrupt. They knew damn well suburban development as it still largely takes place was going to lead them to their current situation (virtually unable to efficiently give transit support), but they were too interested in profits and tax revenues instead of what was actually best for the city. I see the subway to Vaughan as sort of a "bail out" for previous development mistakes.

So, speaking as a 416er, I don't believe that a subway extension to a place that is car dominated and will only really benefit people who aren't even paying city taxes to help support the system should come ahead of a downtown line which would both serve unserved downtown communities AND provide relief to existing transit lines (which largely goes to serve the suburban commuters anyways).

Ever try getting on the Yonge subway between Bloor and Eglinton during the AM rush hour? It's packed already with people coming from the north (a good majority of them from York Region). How would extending the subway further north help relieve that congestion? If anything, it would make it even worse. (And yes, I do realize I'm speaking of the Richmond Hill subway extension, but a fairly similar thing would likely occur on the Spadina line as well)

 

[Second_in_pie]

I'm not too sure if that's something that should be followed religiously... I do understand that in our situation (our governments have pretty much hated on transit developments for years) the DRL should have happened years ago, and improvements to the core transit infrastructure should be improved too... But keep in mind that every time there is some sort of improvement announced in Toronto, a bunch of people and businesses come out of the woodwork to protest and bash the idea into oblivion. And then it never happens, and the TTC gets the blame.

Regardless, my reasoning for not 100% focusing on downtown before expanding into the suburbs is simply because the projects that they are working on (Spadina and Yonge extensions for example) are happening not just for the sake of saying "we have a subway". It's because the subway can be in place at the same time, or even before drastic changes to the areas it affects take place.

People always say you have to have transit in place before people move in, otherwise they'll never get out of their cars, right? Well here's our chance. Instead of hating on the suburbs for being a car obsessed region, people have to give them a chance to actually become transit users. The region is only car obsessed because there hasn't been an alternative for a long time. Only recently with the introduction of Viva and the upcoming VivaNext are people in the region starting to embrace transit. Ridership has been going up significantly every year. I'd say that's a success story, wouldn't you?

So my point is, you can't just put other areas on the back burner until the core is improved, because let's face it... York Region is just so much more efficient at getting things done. By the time the DRL is approved, both subway extensions will have been opened for service, and the Viva BRT would be complete. Complain to your city council for being a bunch of lazy butts.

I agree with you there. In fact, I bet if our government was really caring about public transit, we would have a complete Sheppard Subway, DRL and Eglinton West subway would probably be finished by now. That way, the government could start building LRT through the suburbs by around right now instead of busways. Maybe Hurontario and Dundas would even have subways too!

 

[xtremesniper]

Ever try getting on the Yonge subway between Bloor and Eglinton during the AM rush hour? It's packed already with people coming from the north (a good majority of them from York Region). How would extending the subway further north help relieve that congestion? If anything, it would make it even worse. (And yes, I do realize I'm speaking of the Richmond Hill subway extension, but a fairly similar thing would likely occur on the Spadina line as well)

I used to be one of those people clogging up the trains going southbound, and I honestly felt sorry for those who couldn't jam onto the trains. But to be honest, I'd say that the extension might help you guys out.

Hear me out. If they are going to extend the trains to Richmond Hill, most of the 905ers would rather go to a station closer to them. So you immediately remove tons of people congregating on Finch Station just by doing that. Then, we take the information we have about the TTC turning back every other train (empty) at Finch and going back south. So not only do you have a much more spread out distribution of people on the trains, you also get a nice and fresh train for the downtown folk every second train.

To me this sounds like a fair compromise, because the people who are going to use the TTC to get downtown are already using it. But they're just going to Finch. So extending it up to Richmond Hill isn't really going to be doing much, especially immediately. Those using GO will still use GO, and those using the subway will still use the subway. But now you'll have the empty trains coming by because the load at Finch would be alleviated.

I hope that made sense... I'm kind of in a rush to leave the house. I'll proof read it later tonight.

 

[gweed123]

I understand the logic behind that, and that may work well for stations south of Finch and north of Bloor on the Yonge line for a while. However, there are a few other things to take into account:

1) Assuming that every 2nd train coming down the Yonge line would be full with people from North York, then that leaves trains running every 4 minutes (give or take) to handle passengers between Finch and Bloor (some might be able to squeeze onto trains from North York, but not many). With every 2nd train going to North York, it also means that trains will only be leaving RHC every 4 minutes, compared to every 2 at Finch now. This could potentially be overwhelming, and may create backlogs before the train has even entered Toronto.

2) Transit City: Given the number of Transit City projects designed to dump more passengers onto the Yonge line (Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT, Eglinton Crosstown LRT, and increased service on St. Clair West), this may even further overwhelm the Yonge trains before they even reach Bloor (the biggest passenger dumper of them all). So in short, 4 minute frequencies + tonnes of riders being dumped on inside Toronto = a jam packed subway.

3) Increased Ridership: Transit City will no doubt increase ridership figures by a decent margin. The majority of these new riders will take whatever LRT they were on and be dumped on either the Yonge, Spadina, or B-D subways. Either way, all those new riders have to pass through either St. George or Bloor-Yonge to reach downtown. If those trains on the Yonge and Spadina lines are already full even before the reach Bloor, it's game over. And THIS is why I believe the DRL needs to be built before any of these extensions can concievably take place...

 

[Amphibius]

I used to be one of those people clogging up the trains going southbound, and I honestly felt sorry for those who couldn't jam onto the trains. But to be honest, I'd say that the extension might help you guys out.

Hear me out. If they are going to extend the trains to Richmond Hill, most of the 905ers would rather go to a station closer to them. So you immediately remove tons of people congregating on Finch Station just by doing that. Then, we take the information we have about the TTC turning back every other train (empty) at Finch and going back south. So not only do you have a much more spread out distribution of people on the trains, you also get a nice and fresh train for the downtown folk every second train.

To me this sounds like a fair compromise, because the people who are going to use the TTC to get downtown are already using it. But they're just going to Finch. So extending it up to Richmond Hill isn't really going to be doing much, especially immediately. Those using GO will still use GO, and those using the subway will still use the subway. But now you'll have the empty trains coming by because the load at Finch would be alleviated.

I hope that made sense... I'm kind of in a rush to leave the house. I'll proof read it later tonight.

I am getting rather tired of hearing the selective use of all day, all peak period, and peak hour projections to obscure what is actually rather low ridership. I want to see real on-demand information, a risk and return performance summary of a set of bivariate data (two variables): indicating (1) where those Richmond Hill riders are actually going, and (2) the degree to which their trips would be served by frequent GO service. An empty train at Finch Stn is inconsequential because that's precisely what we've got occuring right now. The near 80,000 commuters that ride along the Finch Avenue corridor today will still congregate at subways.

Even if Finch West Stn captures some of the west-end's load, people from the central and eastern segments will still opt for transferring off multiple N-S feeder bus routes (including those which penetrate York Region) and onto the Finch LRT line. Thus, keeping the total number boarding the Yonge subway still relatively high and causing problems for people trying to board downstream. Also, what if folks say at Eglinton Stn are unfortunate enough to be first greeted by a RHC train too overcrowded to board? That'd mean being stranded for upto 5 minutes just to board a train when the standard waittime's always been only every 2-3 minutes during daytime hours.

This "those who use whichever mode, will continue to use whichever mode" argument is also weak because the system we've had to work with thus far has impeded the implimentation of any other feasible transit options for long-distance commuters. Funneling a lot of bus routes into Finch Stn whose main service corridors are in reality miles away from Yonge Street, contributes to the impression that trips necessarily are destined for that arterial. However the reality more likely is that no other viable alternative terminii for Toronto-bound customers exists in the northern 416 with which to drop-off passenger loads. Hence all roads point to Yonge St. In a post-Don Mills LRT + DRL subway scenario however; the high activity zones of Beaver Creek, downtown Markham and Unionville would now be receiving a legitimate rapid transit service into the downtown core without the negative economic and social impacts of a RHC subway extension.

Provided the exorbitant cost projections of the two subway extensions into York Region, which for the same amount of money could stretch LRT lines clear across Hwy 7; up Don Mills, Dufferin and Jane; and Yonge Street upto to the Bernard Terminal-- one has to ask, is it really worth it to spend the funds as planned? A transfer-free, one-seat subway ride is a nice fantasy for many York Regioners to have, but lets face it, existing users already transfer from a bus and any time loss incurred by having to endure a bus-LRT-subway transfer can be recovered via a cross-platform designed LRT-subway interchange (whereas bus transfers require passengers to change levels, a more time-consuming endeavour than the aforementioned scenario).

SOURCE: http://lrt.daxack.ca/YorkRegion.html