does anybody know when the subway yards study will be finished for the yonge extension, because depending on their outcome, a westerly extension of the sheppard suway may be needed to accomodate trains getting from a yard to the yonge line extension, so maybe because of both the spadina and the yonge extensions Toronto might just benefit from a west extension of Sheppard :p

With the current TTC leadership, I wouldn't put it past them to build a subway tunnel sans stations just to have access to a subway yard.
 
With the current TTC leadership, I wouldn't put it past them to build a subway tunnel sans stations just to have access to a subway yard.

If they allocate $1B for the tunnel, it will take a small extra cost to build Bathurst North and Faywood stations. No bus terminals would be needed at either station.
 
If they allocate $1B for the tunnel, it will take a small extra cost to build Bathurst North and Faywood stations. No bus terminals would be needed at either station.

and don't forget to rough in Senlac much like what was done for Willowdale
 
Willowdale and Senlac

The problem is that they roughed-in Willowdale, but apparently the residents do not want it built.

Perhaps they should poll residents around Sheppard / Senlac, and if they don't want the station, skip it completely.
 
The problem is that they roughed-in Willowdale, but apparently the residents do not want it built.

Perhaps they should poll residents around Sheppard / Senlac, and if they don't want the station, skip it completely.

The NIMBY residents at Senlac and Willowdale should have no say in regards to the building of small, Summerhill like stations.
 
The NIMBY residents at Senlac and Willowdale should have no say in regards to the building of small, Summerhill like stations.

Why would anyone not want a subway station near their house? Wouldn't it increase property values? Or are they scared densification would follow? Either way, the NIMBYs there now won't live there forever, and it would be better to rough in a station for the future even if that's a long way off.
 
I think that the term NIMBY (with negative meaning) is valid for situations when local residents try to block transit lines intended for a large number of passengers traveling from / to other areas.

If local residents are against just a particular station, which is intended for themselves in the first place, and otherwise has very little network impact - well, it is up to them. Sheppard subway serves its passengers just as well without the Willowdale station. In fact, it runs a little faster without that station, and some money have been saved by not finishing it.

However, it is a valid point that the preferences of the residents might change over time. Current residents don't want a station, but future residents might want it. Hence, it might be a good idea, indeed, to rough-in the Senlac station, provided that it does not cost too much.
 
If they allocate $1B for the tunnel, it will take a small extra cost to build Bathurst North and Faywood stations. No bus terminals would be needed at either station.

I wasn't saying that the stations that would be between Sheppard-Yonge and Downsview and/or Sheppard West would be a big cost in comparison to the actual tunnel. I was making a point that they would go out of their way to spite us and build the tunnel anyway, but not allow subway service on it due to the fact that it's not in York Region.
 
I wasn't saying that the stations that would be between Sheppard-Yonge and Downsview and/or Sheppard West would be a big cost in comparison to the actual tunnel. I was making a point that they would go out of their way to spite us and build the tunnel anyway, but not allow subway service on it due to the fact that it's not in York Region.
Well I think that it's just that nobody but York is pushing for subway. They know what they need, and they know that crappy LRT and BRT isn't gonna cut it for both existing and planned development. That's why I keep saying that if things keep going the way they are, the only new subway in the entire GTA will be on Highway 7. I get the feeling that if Mississauga demanded the B-D to be extended to MCC and ran to the Province, the City would end up doing exactly what it is with Spadina.

Unfortunately, Mississauga and Hamilton have both successfully been brainwashed by the TTC and Toronto into believing that LRT is the magical solution to every transit problem imaginable. I don't totally argue with Hamilton's choice, as there's not a lot of density there (and I have to admit, I'm not totally sure how Hamilton's going to fare and react with growth in the rest of the GTA/Golden Horseshoe.) However, Dundas needs something more than Transit City-style LRT and I belive Hurontario is a very, very important route that needs to be higher order than LRT from both a ridership and connectivity standpoint.


Oh, and I agree with you. I could definitely see York push for a link between Spadina and Yonge to move trains between, and have the TTC end up tunneling non-revenue track to fulfill York's wishes while showing as little support for suwbay as possible.
 
Well I think that it's just that nobody but York is pushing for subway. They know what they need, and they know that crappy LRT and BRT isn't gonna cut it for both existing and planned development. That's why I keep saying that if things keep going the way they are, the only new subway in the entire GTA will be on Highway 7. I get the feeling that if Mississauga demanded the B-D to be extended to MCC and ran to the Province, the City would end up doing exactly what it is with Spadina.

Firstly, I don't think LRT is "crappy". I just think streetcars are crappy. And if St. Clair, Harbourfront and Spadina are any indication, the TTC's LRT will be juts as crappy as our streetcars.

Secondly, LRT deployed properly is sufficient for Hurontario I think. It's a completely new ROW so it doesn't have to be subway, even though it's busier than Dundas. I do think a subway is ABSOLUTELY needed between Kipling and Mississauga City Centre. The routing is debatable. I'm somewhat partial to running it along Bloor (and moving Kipling station to Bloor St); others favour Dundas. Still others favour diverting to Sherway Gardens. Only real expert transit planners will be able to give us the correct answer on that one though.

Unfortunately, Mississauga and Hamilton have both successfully been brainwashed by the TTC and Toronto into believing that LRT is the magical solution to every transit problem imaginable. I don't totally argue with Hamilton's choice, as there's not a lot of density there (and I have to admit, I'm not totally sure how Hamilton's going to fare and react with growth in the rest of the GTA/Golden Horseshoe.) However, Dundas needs something more than Transit City-style LRT and I belive Hurontario is a very, very important route that needs to be higher order than LRT from both a ridership and connectivity standpoint.

Hamilton is a perfect fit for LRT since it's a mid-sized city. Mississauga is a large city, and at least one subway is needed. Mississauga's problem is that it's debt-free and scared to death of the operating costs of a subway, and it knows that it would force it to go in the red for the first time in 20 years. Mississauga under Hazel isn't prepared to do that. Maybe someone else would realize that a subway into Mississauga would be an investment.

But we can't really blame Mississauga. Scarborough is getting the really short end of the stick. The subways currently end at Don Mills (Sheppard) and at Kennedy (Danforth). Not a single subway reaches Scarborough City Centre! It's ridiculous. And the worst part of it is that the area councillors got bought off to accept a SRT Mk II replacement over a subway replacement. Pitiful.


Oh, and I agree with you. I could definitely see York push for a link between Spadina and Yonge to move trains between, and have the TTC end up tunneling non-revenue track to fulfill York's wishes while showing as little support for suwbay as possible.

I think the Sheppard link to Spadina is a missing link. It would just make Sheppard more complete. And they could save money by having Sheppard and Spadina trains both using Downsview and Sheppard West. Sheppard West is a logical end-point for the Sheppard Line in the west at this time. Just as STC is the logical endpoint on the east side. It's a crying shame Miller and Giambrone don't realize this. Because honestly the TTC is making stupid decisions right now, and it all comes down to who's at the top.
 
Firstly, I don't think LRT is "crappy". I just think streetcars are crappy. And if St. Clair, Harbourfront and Spadina are any indication, the TTC's LRT will be juts as crappy as our streetcars.
Well, from the looks of things now, we'll be getting St. Clair, Harbourfront or Spadina, except glorified and with 2 or 3 more cars but significantly lower frequencies. If St. Clair, Harborfront and Spadina just got simple things like signal priority, they would be a lot better, but still not good models for the TC routes at all.

Secondly, LRT deployed properly is sufficient for Hurontario I think. It's a completely new ROW so it doesn't have to be subway, even though it's busier than Dundas. I do think a subway is ABSOLUTELY needed between Kipling and Mississauga City Centre. The routing is debatable. I'm somewhat partial to running it along Bloor (and moving Kipling station to Bloor St); others favour Dundas. Still others favour diverting to Sherway Gardens. Only real expert transit planners will be able to give us the correct answer on that one though.
I'm not quite sure what the alignment would be (I still support diverting the Milton Line under Dundas then through MCC, which would make a subway along Dundas have some more merit,) but I really think that claims that LRT will be good enough on Hurontario don't actually hold that much ground.

Hurontario is the central street in Peel region, and could potentially attract hundreds of thousands of riders. It's also ripe for high-density and downtown-like development. With it's placement and preexisting development, it could almost become the second Yonge St. in the GTA. A subway all the way up to Brampton from Port Credit would be shorter than Yonge from Union to Highway 7. I could even just start with a subway from Port Credit to Eglinton, which would definitely attract enough riders, not to mention tonnes of development, and development up Hurontario in anticipation for an expansion.

But we can't really blame Mississauga. Scarborough is getting the really short end of the stick. The subways currently end at Don Mills (Sheppard) and at Kennedy (Danforth). Not a single subway reaches Scarborough City Centre! It's ridiculous. And the worst part of it is that the area councillors got bought off to accept a SRT Mk II replacement over a subway replacement. Pitiful.
Yep, gotta totally agree with you there. Scarborough is actually getting the short end of the stick in almost everything, with poor transit connections with both Go and the TTC, especially Northern Scarborough. The B-D needs to get extended to STC at least, and Sheppard should be completed as well. A Kingston Road BRT/LRT would be a useful link, and I could also see some benefits in a Lawrence BRT/LRT.

I think the Sheppard link to Spadina is a missing link. It would just make Sheppard more complete. And they could save money by having Sheppard and Spadina trains both using Downsview and Sheppard West. Sheppard West is a logical end-point for the Sheppard Line in the west at this time. Just as STC is the logical endpoint on the east side. It's a crying shame Miller and Giambrone don't realize this. Because honestly the TTC is making stupid decisions right now, and it all comes down to who's at the top.
You'll be kicking yourself while saying that when Spadina gets extended to VCC and we still don't even have plans for a Sheppard West extension.

I totally agree, the TTC (and the City as well) are making the stupidest decisions in transit planning I could possibly think of. I think if Miller gets re-elected with Giambrone continuing to head the TTC... Well I'll be very, very sad for starters. If that happens, Transit City will be up and running before the next election, and Toronto's transit system will be screwed and unable to handle the increase in ridership that will need to happen in the next 20-30 years as the region grows and cars become less useful.

But York will be getting a Purple Subway. I'm still hoping on that :p
 
Well, from the looks of things now, we'll be getting St. Clair, Harbourfront or Spadina, except glorified and with 2 or 3 more cars but significantly lower frequencies. If St. Clair, Harborfront and Spadina just got simple things like signal priority, they would be a lot better, but still not good models for the TC routes at all.

I do agree that with signal priority, these routes would be a huge improvement.
To be fair, the 512 between St.Clair West and St.clair is fast. It usually takes less 10 minutes to link both ends of the YUS line. Soon the Eglinton LRT will be a more efficient alternative.

As for Spadina, the university line is there if if it's too slow for your taste. Spadina to university=10 minutes (walking)

Harbourfront for me is for tourist and it serves its purpose.

Hurontario is the central street in Peel region, and could potentially attract hundreds of thousands of riders. It's also ripe for high-density and downtown-like development. With it's placement and preexisting development, it could almost become the second Yonge St. in the GTA. A subway all the way up to Brampton from Port Credit would be shorter than Yonge from Union to Highway 7. I could even just start with a subway from Port Credit to Eglinton, which would definitely attract enough riders, not to mention tonnes of development, and development up Hurontario in anticipation for an expansion.

When Hazel is gone, sure but as long as she's there she won't go into debt. The best is still to come for mississauga.

Yep, gotta totally agree with you there. Scarborough is actually getting the short end of the stick in almost everything, with poor transit connections with both Go and the TTC, especially Northern Scarborough. The B-D needs to get extended to STC at least, and Sheppard should be completed as well. A Kingston Road BRT/LRT would be a useful link, and I could also see some benefits in a Lawrence BRT/LRT.

The SRT main weakness is Kennedy Station as a poor transfert point. The trains will be change, the tracks will be upgraded (The skytrain works fine)

The new extension will be partially underground and will go further north to Scarborough...at the same speed while a B-D extension would be way too expensive and would stop at STC.

The SRT has the highest average speed (IIRC)

They should rebuild Kennedy and use that technology on Eglinton as well

You'll be kicking yourself while saying that when Spadina gets extended to VCC and we still don't even have plans for a Sheppard West extension.

Which is ridiculous. The service is terrible between Sheppard-Yonge and Downsview at peak hour. I was thinking about a petition for the line. Everyone would sign it. People located at Downsview Station, Bathurst/Sheppard, Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills would handle the petition. I don't know if the TTC would care.

I totally agree, the TTC (and the City as well) are making the stupidest decisions in transit planning I could possibly think of. I think if Miller gets re-elected with Giambrone continuing to head the TTC... Well I'll be very, very sad for starters. If that happens, Transit City will be up and running before the next election, and Toronto's transit system will be screwed and unable to handle the increase in ridership that will need to happen in the next 20-30 years as the region grows and cars become less useful.

I have great hope for the future.

1-The strike will sink Miller at the next election.

2-There is still hope fore a complete Sheppard line. By November 2010, the Sheppard LRT might reach the future SRT station Sheppard East (I'm being very generous of TTC competence). Many disagree with Miller's Sheppard east ambition. An opponent announcing that from Sheppard East to Downsview would be a subway would help him secure most of North York votes and Scarborough as well. If you want to beat your opponent, you tend to do the opposite and since this line is the one with the most controversy, I'm confident that the next mayor will rethink this line especially if residents from both areas express their concerns and disagreement on that line.

3-The rest of Transit City doesn't bother me and since it's paid by the province, a conservative mayor would not be able to cancel the whole thing.

4-Many members of the council are pro DRL. With proper leadership and a little common sense, this line will be easily a hot topic in the next election. With Miller trying to put us to sleep with his pro LRT's view, Torontonians will listen to the candidate that will say that it's mandatory.

5-Miller will lose the next election...Giambrone will be out.

But York will be getting a Purple Subway. I'm still hoping on that :p

York should have those Viva LRT they wanted before. Subway is kind of to much. The Go train is more than enough if there's fare integretation and more frequent service like on the future Lakeshore line. That's what the RER did for Paris. With a frequent subway-like commuter train, a subway in York is really not worth it. A true LRT network would be fabolous.

Subway= Paris
RER= Suburb link to Paris with stops within the city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER

I'm glad that Go transit is going toward that direction.
 
Ansem I agree with some of what you wrote, minus keeping the SRT. We don't need it. Let's rationalize our network to subway, LRT and buses. We don't need silly SRT/ALRT, or trolley buses, or swan boats.
 
Ansem I agree with some of what you wrote, minus keeping the SRT. We don't need it. Let's rationalize our network to subway, LRT and buses. We don't need silly SRT/ALRT, or trolley buses, or swan boats.

I would prefer the whole thing to be subway as well but we both know it won't happen. I don't mind the SRT but indeed, the subway would ve been the best choice overall and on Eglinton as well
 

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