Swarley said:
Ummm.... we pay engineers to do design work and "push paper" so that tunnels and buildings don't collapse and kill people. Is that good enough? Or would you prefer the trial and error method?
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Your sarcasm is not appreciated, Please take it somewhere else.
Yes I understand Engineers Need to get paid, matter of fact I know a civil engineer gets paid 1500 per week to work for the city, but the 20 million to plan a station is a bit excessive don't you think.
I know Ellis Don and Tridel spend a lot less to plan a 20 story high-rise then what the TTC is paying for a station.
 
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Sorry for the sarcasm but it seemed like you were questioning whether we really needed to pay them anything. Anyway, for large projects EPCM fees (engineering, procurement, construction management) might be 25% of the supply and install cost - so for stations now over $100 M it's not entirely unreasonable. Obviously I don't know specifics though.

And I'm not an expert or anything but it seems to me digging a large underground station could easily involve more detailed and specialized engineering than a 20 story condo.
 
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I don't hear anybody in the business complaining about these costs which they are obviously not hiding. Which would lead me to believe they are necessary.
 
Who knows what happens now that the government just strapped transit funding so much?????
 
savevp said:
Who knows what happens now that the government just strapped transit funding so much?????
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I believe the Spadina extension and the Sheppard East LRT are going through because shovels are already on the ground. Also, I don't think the Spadina extension was part of MO2020 and it is MO2020 that lost the $4 billion funding so we're still on track.
 
I think they should do some changes anyway, because there is a lot of wasteful spending in this project. They went and cut useful additions to our system such as the Finch and Eglinton LRTs, but left this $3 billion subway to nowhere untouched. I think they should build the extension, but omit Sheppard West station (but leave a flat, straight track section for future infill à la North York Centre) and cancel everything north of Steeles. That would probably save us 1 billion right there.

Of course, I know as well as anybody that it will never happen, because the extension is being built for political reasons, not for transportation reasons. Funding upper levels of government depends on the subway going to Vaughan so that they can please the swing riding.

On a similar note, why do they say that the Sheppard LRT is under construction? All they've started working on is upgrading the sewers and building a bridge over the Stouffville line. Both projects probably would have been built even if there was no LRT proposal. In fact, according to the City's website they haven't even made an LRT construction schedule yet.
 
fanoftoronto said:
I believe the Spadina extension and the Sheppard East LRT are going through because shovels are already on the ground. Also, I don't think the Spadina extension was part of MO2020 and it is MO2020 that lost the $4 billion funding so we're still on track.
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Nope, Spadina extension was part of MO2020.
 
Second_in_pie said:
Nope, Spadina extension was part of MO2020.
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Metrolinx's MO2020 website says:

Improving transit for customers by supporting Toronto Transit Commission projects:

* Transit City Light Rail Transit (LRT) Feasibility Studies and Environmental Assessments
* Yonge Subway Capacity Improvements
* Yonge Finch-Steeles Bus Rapid Transit
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No mention of a Vaughan subway, however on their main page they do say that the plan includes "cross-boundary subway expansions".
 
I agree, the Spadina extension should be stopped at Steeles but it's never gonna happen. Money can also be saved by building some sections using cut and cover method and we can ever have open sections near 407, but again, this is Toronto and we need overbuilt stations and needless tunnels.

Technically, the SELRT is not under construction but it's kinda like prep work is going on. Another reason the SELRT wouldn't be stopped is because the feds have promised a share of the cost.

Spadina extension is part of MO2020?? It's not clear from the Metrolinx website so I'm not sure. But there was no talk of postponing it. Just the ECLRT, S(L)RT and Finch LRT were told to be postponed. There was no mention of postponing the Spadina extension in any of the news articles that came after March 25 when the funding was suspended too.
 
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fanoftoronto said:
I agree, the Spadina extension should be stopped at Steeles but it's never gonna happen. Money can also be saved by building some sections using cut and cover method and we can ever have open sections near 407, but again, this is Toronto and we need overbuilt stations and needless tunnels.
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I really have no idea why the TTC has this mindset. When they build subway they massively overbuild everything, but when they build LRT they try to save every single penny.
 
fanoftoronto said:
Money can also be saved by building some sections using cut and cover method
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This is frequently mentioned but is it actually true? Is there a document which directly compares these two options (through an open field) for Ontario? I am specifically interested in how our soil remidiation laws influence the price. Depth matters, so assume a shallow system.
 
reaperexpress said:
I really have no idea why the TTC has this mindset. When they build subway they massively overbuild everything, but when they build LRT they try to save every single penny.
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Hey, it's probably the last subway line they'll ever build in this region so I guess they're trying to go out with a splash.

But yeah I truly see little need for any of TYSSE to be below-grade given the adjacent land use most of the route. Even having a subway flying overhead through Keele Campus would have been an inspired choice.
 
York University would laugh at the suggestion of an elevated subway through the Campus, and the preferred route alignment cuts through a number of buildings. North of Steeles you may be able to get away with an elevated structure.
You want to save money? Take out the 407 station. Useless station.
 
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