Richard White said:
True but is also not cost effective to run trains to VMC at 1 am. How many people do you think will honestly be travelling to Vaughan at 1 am?
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Rainforest said:
It would be perfectly reasonable to replace the subway service from Steeles West to VMC with shuttle buses after 11 pm on Fridays / Saturdays / evenings before public holidays, and after 10 pm on the evenings before workdays. Same goes for the whole Sheppard subway. The op costs would go down, with a minor inconvenience to the few riders.
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While it's a valid point that it's cost ineffective and there are likely to be few riders, do you think the TTC is going to write cheques to York Region and the Province refunding them a significant portion of what they paid for TYSSE? Or not, and enjoy paying for transit forever with $0.00 from the federal and provincial governments or any neighbouring municipality for the rest of time? Implausible. Short turns yes, shorter hours no.

How many people are going to Sheppard West, Don Mills, and McCowan at 1AM today?
 
Why are kids who live in Vaughan not allowed to go home from Clubtown at 1:00 AM? Everyone knows so much about everyone else's plans. I wish I had everyone's intuition. And there is not one nurse whose shift started or ended at midnight living in Vaughan who works downtown either. And heaven knows....now that it's easier to get about...no one in Vaughan will change their commuting pattern.

I am reminded of mutual fund financial statements. Past performance may or may not be a good indicator of future results.

Never mind politicians. They have neurotic transit advocates licked any day. It isn't politicians pulling things apart. We don't even believe in the projects ourselves.
 
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Megaton327 said:
While it's a valid point that it's cost ineffective and there are likely to be few riders, do you think the TTC is going to write cheques to York Region and the Province refunding them a significant portion of what they paid for TYSSE? Or not, and enjoy paying for transit forever with $0.00 from the federal and provincial governments or any neighbouring municipality for the rest of time? Implausible. Short turns yes, shorter hours no.

How many people are going to Sheppard West, Don Mills, and McCowan at 1AM today?
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We are not talking about running no service, just replacing it with shuttle buses that will be almost as fast (no traffic congestion at that late hour).

TTC will be subsidizing the the riders using the VMC and 407 stations anyway, the special arrangement for the late hours would just reduce that subsidy slightly.

Even if TTC had to refund the portion of York region's contribution proportional to the hours when the service shortened, that would be something like 12% of the said contribution, or no more than $50 million. Not a lot of money (of course, TTC won't refund them anyway).
 
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^ By the way, YRT slightly deviated from its part of the bargain, too. Originally they stated that they do not intend to run any service to York U once the subway opens, meaning that riders from York will have to pay an extra fare to TTC to get from VMC, 407, or Steeles West stations to the York U station. But now they want to run some of their buses around the campus, on Ian MacDonald and The Pond Rd.

I don't blame them at all, taking the riders straight to where they want to go is the right thing to do. The point is that common sense should take priority over formal arguments.
 
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TransitBart said:
Why are kids who live in Vaughan not allowed to go home from Clubtown at 1:00 AM? Everyone knows so much about everyone else's plans. I wish I had everyone's intuition. And there is not one nurse whose shift started or ended at midnight living in Vaughan who works downtown either. And heaven knows....now that it's easier to get about...no one in Vaughan will change their commuting pattern.
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I would like to point out that transit service in the 905 is lousy that late at night and on weekends. Yes you can catch a bus but why bother when the service is spotty at best. It is not as bad as Mississauga where almost all minor bus routes terminate on Sundays but the fact remains. Why would you run a full length train for a few passengers an hour. The kids going to clubs are going to take an uber right to the club.

I had friends in Richmond Hill who took Uber downtown because it was easier. I doubt anyone will be waiting for a bus at Jane and Hwy 7 at 1 am or even 2 am when the last trains pull in. They will drive.
 
Richard White said:
I would like to point out that transit service in the 905 is lousy that late at night and on weekends. Yes you can catch a bus but why bother when the service is spotty at best. It is not as bad as Mississauga where almost all minor bus routes terminate on Sundays but the fact remains. Why would you run a full length train for a few passengers an hour. The kids going to clubs are going to take an uber right to the club.

I had friends in Richmond Hill who took Uber downtown because it was easier. I doubt anyone will be waiting for a bus at Jane and Hwy 7 at 1 am or even 2 am when the last trains pull in. They will drive.
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They can take an Uber from the subway station to save money.
 
Rainforest said:
By the way, YRT slightly deviated from its part of the bargain, too. Originally they stated that they do not intend to run any service to York U once the subway opens, meaning that riders from York will have to pay an extra fare to TTC to get from VMC, 407, or Steeles West stations to the York U station. But now they want to run some of their buses around the campus, on Ian MacDonald and The Pond Rd.

I don't blame them at all, taking the riders straight to where they want to go is the right thing to do. The point is that common sense should take priority over formal arguments.
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TYSSE will (hopefully) escalate the need for a fare integration agreement in the GTA, since Go Transit is losing its access to York University. I think YRT was always going to keep a couple of bus routes running to York University though, since that's the natural place for those routes (e.g. the Keele bus and the 3 bus) to go. What they were (and still are) taking away from York is Viva service.
 
junctionist said:
They can take an Uber from the subway station to save money.
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Anyone who is likely to take an Uber from the subway station will likely be taking one from their point of origin. I highly doubt anyone will waste 30 minutes or more on the subway coming from downtown just to take an Uber from the subway station. Taking an Uber from downtown while more expensive will save them time and it is easier to find an Uber in Toronto than it is in Thornhill or Vaughan at 1 am.
 
Richard White said:
I would like to point out that transit service in the 905 is lousy that late at night and on weekends. Yes you can catch a bus but why bother when the service is spotty at best. It is not as bad as Mississauga where almost all minor bus routes terminate on Sundays but the fact remains. Why would you run a full length train for a few passengers an hour. The kids going to clubs are going to take an uber right to the club.

I had friends in Richmond Hill who took Uber downtown because it was easier. I doubt anyone will be waiting for a bus at Jane and Hwy 7 at 1 am or even 2 am when the last trains pull in. They will drive.
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funny, Uber studied the effect on their ridership when the Tube changed to 24 hour operation and found that transit ridership on the subway went up at stations in the suburbs AND also increased ridership for Uber/carpooling in those areas because getting to transit 80% of the way and paying for Uber is cheaper and faster than paying $30-50 straight from downtown and navigating through the heavy taxi corrdiors.
 
BMO said:
Uber studied the effect on their ridership when the Tube changed to 24 hour operation and found that transit ridership on the subway went up at stations in the suburbs AND also increased ridership for Uber/carpooling in those areas because getting to transit 80% of the way and paying for Uber is cheaper and faster than paying $30-50 straight from downtown and navigating through the heavy taxi corrdiors.
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It's not going to be faster in Toronto. It's just not worth spending an extra $20-30 on a not-taxi directly from downtown when a TTC or Go Transit bus will get you most of the way home.
 
Rainforest said:
^ By the way, YRT slightly deviated from its part of the bargain, too. Originally they stated that they do not intend to run any service to York U once the subway opens, meaning that riders from York will have to pay an extra fare to TTC to get from VMC, 407, or Steeles West stations to the York U station. But now they want to run some of their buses around the campus, on Ian MacDonald and The Pond Rd.

I don't blame them at all, taking the riders straight to where they want to go is the right thing to do. The point is that common sense should take priority over formal arguments.
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Which is silly if you ask me. Part of the reason you create a trunk route (VIVA) is to drive the most passengers on those routes through connections with more local routes. Put it another way, would you rather have a one stop ride to York U that duplicates 5-10 km of routing with VIVA or would you rather have that 5-10 km of route occur in the local community but have a connection with a trunk route?
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
Part of the reason you create a trunk route (VIVA) is to drive the most passengers on those routes through connections with more local routes. Put it another way, would you rather have a one stop ride to York U that duplicates 5-10 km of routing with VIVA or would you rather have that 5-10 km of route occur in the local community but have a connection with a trunk route?
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I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The 3 bus (the one that'll still go to York University) is a fairly direct route from Yonge Street to York University, aside from the detour around Bathurst & Centre Street.
 
amnesiajune said:
It's not going to be faster in Toronto. It's just not worth spending an extra $20-30 on a not-taxi directly from downtown when a TTC or Go Transit bus will get you most of the way home.
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I mean, I usually take UberPool which is rarely faster than transit, especially when your driver is trying to coordinate with three other drunk passengers on where to pick them up at 2:30 a.m. on a Saturday. I know I mainly use it just because it's more convenient and safe getting dropped off right at my door even though it usually ends up costing $20-30 during peak hours for Uber Pool and is slower than taking the subway would be theoretically (since that's not an option).
 
amnesiajune said:
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The 3 bus (the one that'll still go to York University) is a fairly direct route from Yonge Street to York University, aside from the detour around Bathurst & Centre Street.
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Ok I will try to explain. Route 3 runs for 5km along Steeles from New Westminster Dr to York U and presumably picks up few (if any) passengers due to Steeles being in the TTC fare zone. However Route 3 also meets Viva Purple at Promenade bus terminal, so you could make a transfer there and thus duplicates that service. If you remove the Steeles to York U Service from Route 3 you either a) reduce the number of km, ie. running time or b) can lengthen service on the other side. For example service could be extended 5km further east.

Another example is route 20 Jane which meets VIVA orange at the VMC instead of duplicating service passengers could transfer to VIVA orange to continue on to York thus saving from having two busses running to York U

Instead we are valuing direct 1 seat rides over an overall network
 
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