Late reply but...

BurlOak said:
both made deals with developers.

http://hansardindex.ontla.on.ca/hansardECAT/38-1/L113A-6.htm

"A dozen developers were invited by the Liberal Party to the finance minister's home for an exclusive meeting with the two most powerful politicians in Ontario, and it cost them $10,000 each for that privilege. TVO obtained a letter addressed to you from one of the developers. The letter states that you were making promises to developers at the fundraiser regarding what lands would and would not be included in your greenbelt scheme. You seem incapable of keeping your promises to the public but quite happy to make them and keep them to those who can afford to pay."

"Premier, you have failed to release any scientific basis for the boundaries of your greenbelt and you were caught making promises to developers in return for a $10,000 cheque payable to the Ontario Liberal Party. This is what it looks like: It appears that the going rate is $10,000 a promise and that paying more taxes doesn't guarantee someone that your promises will be kept. It has to be a direct donation to your party."

Of course these are statements by the opposition so they are not 100% proof, and since the Liberals had a majority this issue was swept aside.
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Well, what you're quoting is based on accusations by Silvio DeGasperis who was pissed because his lands in Pickering were included in the Greenbelt. He felt he was promised his lands would be fine for development and when they were left out he argued the borders were arbitrary. And it wasn't "swept aside." DeGasperis took the government to court, and lost.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/261491--greenbelt-nemesis-ordered-to-pay-702-000

"Their sole motive for bringing the application was to frustrate, disrupt and delay the Land Exchange as a further step in their ongoing war with the Province and their attempts to harass and intimidate the province into permitting development on their lands adjoining the Seaton Lands," the judges wrote.

There's your "not 100% proof."

Either way, Harris passed the ORM legislation, including a landswap with developers. You may recall McGuinty promised, when first elected, to stop the building of homes up in Richmond Hill. Because of the terms of the swap, he couldn't do that and now they're built. His government passed the Greenbelt legislation a couple of years later.

To circle back on-thread, McGuinty created the Greenbelt but then passed Ministerial Zoning Orders allowing Toromont to effectively circumvent that and move north. It sounds like, despite all that, Toromont is around for a while.
 
Earlscourt_Lad said:
I'd have to disagree with that, the B-D tiles are a cohesive design scheme that are worth keeping on their own merits.

If you see the same thing every day for years, the subway stations on your commute for example, you'll get bored with them regardless of what they look like. How often does anyone who regularly commutes on the Spadina line really notice Museum station anymore?
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I was harsh in my description of the B-D stations and I stand by it, but I can't deny that the stations have some design merits, from the sandblasted signage in the TTC typeface to the light and airy entrance pavilions that sometimes have arched ceilings, like at Runnymede. There are some interesting moments such as Castle Frank's entrance dome, Old Mill's glazed platform over the Humber Valley, and the massive hall at Warden with clerestories which connects all the bus platforms. But on the whole, there are too few creative flourishes, too much repetition, no art (except at Victoria Park with the recent renovation), and no natural light at most stations beyond the entrances.

In dealing with the B-D stations I would enhance the stations, addressing functional and aesthetic deficiencies by building on the original aesthetic, as was done quite nicely at Victoria Park. New stations, however, should have unique architecture and art from the beginning. Stations with impressive design with a lot of unique details do not get boring. They may get banal, but at random times you will notice different details and be impressed again.

car4041 said:
To be clear, I was responding to junctionist's particular comment that the view out the train windows makes people dislike travelling on the Bloor-Danforth line more than other lines. Of course I agree that the B-D stations are often cramped, claustrophobic, and boring places to walk through, and that the Spadina and Sheppard stations are much more pleasant and desirable spaces to be in, and that it's certainly worthwhile for new stations to be beautiful. But once you're on the train itself, are these things actually noticeable anymore? If it's crowded you can barely see out the windows at all, and even when you can see out, you usually just see a small square of the platform wall, which is going to be boring regardless of how beautiful the station building itself is -- and on the new trains, the darkly tinted windows obscure most of the view anyway.
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The Spadina line is a lot more stimulating, for instance, with the massive volumes of Downsview with beautiful abstract tile mosaics and natural light pouring in, and the odd yet warm experience of entering Dupont by subway and then seeing the striking two-storey flower murals amidst all the rounded orange surfaces. What you see from the train can be quite interesting depending on the station architecture and integration of art. There’s a lot of variation possible in the design of the platform levels of stations in terms of columns, ceiling heights, placement and types of art, and finishes. Think of Downsview, Yorkdale (particularly if it still had its animated neon light art), Eglinton West, and Dupont in terms of what's visible from trains: there's a lot of engaging design variation. The presence of artwork like at Dupont enlivens the underground scenery. Since every station is unique in Montreal, the Metro provides some scenery that is an interesting compliment to what's on the surface. For instance, look at the platforms of stations like Peel with its abstract circle art and unique columns, the monumentalism of Place-Saint-Henri, and the sculptural concrete 'light tree' and patterns of glazed blue brick in concrete at Georges-Vanier.

nfitz said:
If done artistically - like in Montreal that's fine. Sheppard line just looks like it was done to save money - which is the case.
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Sheppard's concrete walls look like a clear case of cost cutting. I think concrete was used well by Arthur Erickson at Eglinton West (and natural brick as well as a contrasting material for walls and floors), with its boldly coffered concrete ceilings and architecturally exposed structural framing. Concrete was used quite creatively in many Montreal Metro stations, with De la Savane station in particular coming to mind.
 
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nfitz said:
What do you mean? Sheppard was on budget - slighly under if I remember. The Spadina extension is still on budget. I can't remember if Downsview station was on budget or not, but it was over 20 years ago they started on it, and I don't recall seeing stories about it being over budget.
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Do you really think Spadina is on budget? The design phase was "on budget" only because they build in a huge contingency fund - and then used it all up. As I recall, they underestimated the number of new train cars they would need, then had to add more for that. And though we don't know yet, it seems pretty likely the long construction delay following last year's accident will put the construction phase well overbudget too.
 
k10ery said:
Do you really think Spadina is on budget?
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There have been no additional funds alloted to it by any government (federal, provincial, or city); so yes, it's on budget.

That may not be the final result in 3 years but that is accurate today.

Also, the construction delay was caused by a contractor. They will likely have to pay for any costs incurred in addition to the fines they recieved for safety issues.
 
k10ery said:
As I recall, they underestimated the number of new train cars they would need, then had to add more for that.
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There's talk that they've underestimated the number of train sets for complete conversion to TR and increase service. However 10 additional trainsets for the extension is more than enough. And there is still plenty of T1 sets available, as there's more than necessary to operate the BD and Sheppard lines.

k10ery said:
And though we don't know yet, it seems pretty likely the long construction delay following last year's accident will put the construction phase well overbudget too.
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Hard to say. Every major contract except one I've seen awarded has been somewhat to significantly below the engineers estimate - likely because the construction industry was soft during the period the contracts were awarded. The only exception to that was the most recent contract that was awarded - to build York University station, which was slightly over the estimate.
 
Good answers, both. Let's make a note to check back on this in 2015, as somebody will have bragging rights :)
 
If one read the various reports for TTC September meeting, it was noted that the cost will/could be over budget and a review was underway to look at it.

When one budget things, they tend to be on the high side in the first place as a safe guard so it will not be over budget at the end of the day. When the budget was prepared, it was based on X factors and a lot can change between preparing the budget to tender to have thing go side way.

Copper wiring has taken a huge jump over the last few years to the point its double or triple the cost today. The market is soft at this time.

There has been cost saving in many cases due to new contractors trying to get their foot into the market that they bare bone operation cost to do the project to get future work.

There not much major work going on these days and therefore contractors and subs trades need work to the point they have small markups on their cost to do the work. If the market was hot, cost at all levels will be higher to the point there will be few company's bidding on this type of work.

There are only a handful of contractor able to do this work to the point that a number joint venture has taken place to spread the risk factor around in doing the project.

Come opening day, this project will be over budget and not on schedule.
 
drum118 said:
Copper wiring has taken a huge jump over the last few years to the point its double or triple the cost today.
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All the contracts that this would impact are yet to come. Signalling, electrification, etc.

drum118 said:
If the market was hot, cost at all levels will be higher to the point there will be few company's bidding on this type of work.
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I think we are seeing that with the final station that was just awarded - there seemed to be far less bids than the other stations that were awarded earlier. Good timing I guess.
 
ShonTron said:
You can often be awfully harsh with your comments, Dan. Of course I understand it. I just don't like it. It's "art" - of course people are supposed to have different opinions.
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And yet, I actually took the time to re-write it twice because I figured if I didn't you would complain. Would it be better if I sugar-coated it rather than just be matter-of-fact? Maybe the issue isn't on my side of the keyboard...

In any case, your mocking deference to "repeating tiles" and the misspelled tile certainly makes it appear that you don't understand its point. They are supposed to be the same and yet different. That's what happens when you get 3000 people writing the same thing down, including children who may not yet know how to spell correctly. Your handwriting wouldn't be the same as mine, and I don't know if I would have spelled "Sheppard" correctly when I was 5. There are certainly enough people on this forum and elsewhere who have difficulty with "Sheppard" and "Eglinton".

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Actually Dan, I think you missed the point - i.e. the aesthetics of the piece is wanting - and it certainly didn't help to change the impression of the station for the better, a goal which is supposed to be the raison e'tre of the whole exercise in the first place. And frankly, given the handwriting of what, 90% of the general population out there, immortalizing it all in a subway station is probably one of the worst forms of graffiti masquerading as "art".

AoD
 
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smallspy said:
And yet, I actually took the time to re-write it twice because I figured if I didn't you would complain. Would it be better if I sugar-coated it rather than just be matter-of-fact? Maybe the issue isn't on my side of the keyboard....
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Funny that a comment about you being harsh, and I'm inclined to agree with that, results in a nastier reply.
 
smallspy said:
And yet, I actually took the time to re-write it twice because I figured if I didn't you would complain. Would it be better if I sugar-coated it rather than just be matter-of-fact? Maybe the issue isn't on my side of the keyboard...

In any case, your mocking deference to "repeating tiles" and the misspelled tile certainly makes it appear that you don't understand its point. They are supposed to be the same and yet different. That's what happens when you get 3000 people writing the same thing down, including children who may not yet know how to spell correctly. Your handwriting wouldn't be the same as mine, and I don't know if I would have spelled "Sheppard" correctly when I was 5. There are certainly enough people on this forum and elsewhere who have difficulty with "Sheppard" and "Eglinton".

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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1. You are quite knowledgable, which I appreciate. But yes, your comments on UT can sometimes be harsh, and occasionally dismissive and rude. But I'm taken aback by your response, which is patronizing and borderline insulting.
2. The same handwriting repeats itself - there's 3000 samples, but 17,000 tiles. They repeat, as I claimed before.

I stand by my opinion that it looks like a cheap mausoleum to me.
 
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