MisterF said:
Look outside of Canada. Look outside of North America even. It's a big world out there and there are plenty of casinos in downtown cores.
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Exactly! Perhaps the most spectacular Casino in the world (certainly the most expensive at $8 Billion) is the Marina Bay Sands which dominates the skyline of Singapore. I don't know why people have this notion that downtown Toronto is somehow "too good" or "too world class" to be home to a major Casino when one of the major financial capitals of the world (Toronto isn't even in the same league) has a Casino as its signature building.

The Marina Bay Sands was developed by Las Vegas Sands Corp. which, incidentally, the Globe & Mail reported (before the big announcement) was interested in the convention centre site. I wonder if Oxford is partnered with Las Vegas Sands? If so the following should give us a taste of what we might be able to expect on Front street!

800px-Marina_bay_sands_skypark.jpg


800px-MarinaBaySands22092012.jpg


800px-1_singapore_city_skyline_dusk_panorama_2011.jpg


Image source: Wikipedia


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL6xXOa8c98&feature=related
 
that looks tacky like the fake eiffel towers at paris las vegas. if that's all we have to look forward to get me out of here. : o

you cannot compare canada to singapore btw, economies are structured completely different.
 
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Peepers said:
Exactly! Perhaps the most spectacular Casino in the world (certainly the most expensive at $8 Billion) is the Marina Bay Sands which dominates the skyline of Singapore. I don't know why people have this notion that downtown Toronto is somehow "too good" or "too world class" to be home to a major Casino when one of the major financial capitals of the world (Toronto isn't even in the same league) has a Casino as its signature building.

The Marina Bay Sands was developed by Las Vegas Sands Corp. which, incidentally, the Globe & Mail reported (before the big announcement) was interested in the convention centre site. I wonder if Oxford is partnered with Las Vegas Sands? If so the following should give us a taste of what we might be able to expect on Front street!
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That looks too much like the location of the Portlands if referenced to Toronto. Sure, build the casino and the complex at the portlands - make it the next Marina Centre/South. Maybe then we'll also get a rapid transit connection to there (funded by the casino developer). :)
 
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11th said:
Are you suggesting anything (not just casino locations), that works in other parts of the world will work in Toronto (or Canada)? If you are doing a comparison, it makes sense to compare cities with similar demographics, economies, etc. ; so of course people will use Canadian or North American cities as comparisons.
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000 said:
you cannot compare canada to singapore btw, economies are structured completely different.
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What an awfully limiting view of things. Toronto can be compared to the likes of Detroit and Niagara Falls but somehow Singapore is too different? Come on. There's nothing about Asian and European cities that makes them incomparable to Toronto for conversations like this. If anything Toronto has more in common with Singapore, Berlin, and Melbourne than the typical struggling North American city with a casino.
 
That Marina Bay Sands looks horrible- like something from a 60's sci-fi comic book. I trust Foster and co will do a better job than that tacky abomination.
 
i think its one of the most unique buildings of the world. and is very much sculptural. its adds such interest to thier skyline. woth out it they would look like every other city out there. almost L.A. looking with out it. its not a box right! way thinking outside the box. and torontos new preposal (s) will add alot to the skyline and from street level. mix that with the mervish project. and wow.
 
I certainly wouldn't wish that on Toronto. Robbie the Robot would look right at home on that skydeck imo, but hey different strokes.
 
Obviously Vaughan has already made up his mind, but he still raises several valid and points of concern.
Dear Residents,

Soon, City Council will be debating allowing a mega casino to be built in Toronto and casino lobbyists have their eyes on our waterfront.

Toronto and East York Community Council wants to hear from residents about their views on the potential location of a Casino in downtown Toronto. We have scheduled a special public consultation session and I hope you can attend:

Date: Wednesday October 10, 2012
Time: 6:00 pm
Location: Council Chambers, Toronto City Hall, 100 Queen St W

To register to speak, please contact the Clerk, Ros Dyers either by email teycc@toronto.ca or phone 416-392-7033.

There are a number of impacts to locating a casino in an established community. To read the staff report follow this link: 2012.TE18.55 - Zoning Status of Casinos in Toronto and East York District http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.TE18.55

Stand up for our city and act to stop a mega casino from being built in Toronto.
Join the No CASINO Toronto campaign! http://nocasinotoronto.com/take-action/


Why am I asking you to join the campaign?
Why am I asking you to come to City Hall?

Casinos are bad for cities.

Not convinced? Then check out what's happening in every corner of the continent. Google "No Casino" and see what comes up. Whether it's Vancouver or Miami, Manhattan, Gettysburg or Pawtucket, city after city, town after town, everyone seems to be fighting a casino proposal.

Now Google "Casino debt." Just as quickly, you find out why, from Nevada to Nantucket, from Windsor to Niagara, casinos all over North America are going broke. And when they fail, the cities they reside in fail too.

Like the compulsive gamblers they create, casinos all over the continent are losing big right now. Instead of walking away from their losses, they are upping the ante by trying to open new operations in more cities. What they are hoping to find is a new generation of gamblers to keep the house afloat. Let's keep Toronto as far away from this mess as possible.

There are good reasons to avoid a casino. The facts and experience of other municipalities make the case pretty clear. In Montreal, virtually 93% of the casino's revenue came straight out of the local economy (MacIasac 1994:38). This means that money bet at the casino wasn’t spent on clothes, rent or food locally, it was sent to the multi-national operator of the gambling facility. Money spent on dining and drinks wasn't spent in local bars or restaurants, it was also sent to the multi-national casino operators.

In Atlantic City, 40% of the bars and restaurants near the casino went bankrupt (Corelli, Memeth and Driedger, 1994b). St Louis had a similar experience. The most quoted expert economist, Earl Grinols of Baylor University, says that as economic drivers or job creators, casinos are "at best a wash, for every job created there is a job lost."

If the business case doesn't scare you, consider the impact on the city's quality of life. From a social perspective, crime goes up. Street crimes, fraud, loan sharking and prostitution rise when a casino comes to town. Before the casino, Atlantic City rarely made the top 50 list of crime-ridden cities. Since gambling came to town they almost always rank near the top.

Casinos are inward looking complexes. Windows are rare; food and drinks served cheap and on site to keep gamblers betting. The head of MGM, when talking to Toronto Council said that a casino requires one parking spot for every slot machine. 5000 are forecast in Toronto. Sound like your vision for the waterfront?

One study reports that property values close to a casino drop by about ten per cent. Based on the meagre amount the province shares with local municipalities, the drop in municipal tax revenue will likely outpace whatever cut of the take Toronto gets.

The casino industry isn't even contemplating paying market-value for public land. The head of MGM has said that if they got a deal on the land, the City could get a bigger slice of the take. This is coming from a company that's losing money hand over fist in Las Vegas right now.

Finally there is the impact on the folks who purport to enjoy gambling. A 2003 report by Earl Grinols calculates the social cost at $289 for every $46 of government revenue. That is over $6.00 in social cost for every $1.00 generated! While most of these costs are tied to crime, there is a significant impact on healthcare costs. Addicted gamblers cost a lot to cure, they often blaze a trail of financial ruin at work and home, and require treatment to manage their affliction. It's next to impossible to get this type of help in Toronto now. Manufacturing more problem gamblers will not help. Proximity to a casino is the most significant risk factor related to problem gambling.

Torontonians have considered this issue before and reached the right conclusion. The province is back again and talking up dreams of Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil tents, conventions and luxury hotels. They won't produce a business plan, won't release the studies that support their case, won't tell us what the city's cut might be, and they have just passed legislation removing the requirement to hold a referendum on this issue.

Cynical as that might be, it's probably the only smart part of the proposal because it's clear that if it did go to a vote, Toronto would say no again. That you can bet on.

Want to find out more? Follow this link: http://nocasinotoronto.com/casino-facts/

Sincerely,

Adam Vaughan
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
re: Comparison w/ Millennium Park

If you look at the urban structure of the area surrounding Millennium Park, vs. the proposed rail corridor decking for this project, you can see that the impact is likely FAR greater in Toronto. For all intents and purposes, MP is situated in a context of park space, which as great as it is, isn't dividing any significant urban fabric like the rail corridor does (high intensity uses like the MTCC, Skydome and the future complex). This project will help to stitch the N/S link in one of the key areas of the city and may very well even help to bring the waterfront closer to the core, psychologically speaking. Sometimes it isn't just size that matters.

AoD
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I'm assuming the 5 acre figure would be just the park alone? If so, the comparison to MP becomes even less outlandish when you factor in the adjoining Roundhouse park and the other public areas of the site. Taken as a whole, rather than parsing it down to its component parts, the potential for this entire tourist/entertainment precinct becomes impressive indeed!

My only concern would be Toronto's infamous inclination towards the 'cheaping' whereby we are promised one thing, but end up with Coupland's sorry excuse of a City Place park instead.
 
In Montreal, virtually 93% of the casino's revenue came straight out of the local economy (MacIasac 1994:38). This means that money bet at the casino wasn’t spent on clothes, rent or food locally, it was sent to the multi-national operator of the gambling facility.
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Way to research, Councillor: there is no multi-national operator in Montreal. It's owned and operated by the government.

I'm assuming the 5 acre figure would be just the park alone? If so, the comparison to MP becomes even less outlandish when you factor in the adjoining Roundhouse park and the other public areas of the site. Taken as a whole, rather than parsing it down to its component parts, the potential for this entire tourist/entertainment precinct becomes impressive indeed!

My only concern would be Toronto's infamous inclination towards the 'cheaping' whereby we are promised one thing, but end up with Coupland's sorry excuse of a City Place park instead.
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Agreed. I certainly hope this park has more in common with Millennium Park than the mere fact that it's built over a rail corridor. The developer should pay for the decking and some of the finishing of the park, get whatever FAR bonuses they're entitled to, and then transfer it to a charitable foundation that would raise money for really impressive facilities.
 
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unimaginative2 said:
Way to research, Councillor: there is no multi-national operator in Montreal. It's owned and operated by the government.
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He never linked Montreal to multinationals, just pointed out that the money purportedly generated by tourists was really coming out of locals.

I think he's alluding to the fact that it'll be worse in Toronto since our casino will be run by multinational companies which will mean money leaving the city.
 
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jje1000 said:
He never linked Montreal to multinations, just pointed out that the money purportedly generated by tourists was really coming out of locals.

I think he's alluding to the fact that it'll be worse in Toronto since our casino will be run by multinational companies which will mean money leaving the city.
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... oh I'm sure the city/province will nab its share of the profits through taxes and fees!
 
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