ShonTron
Moderator
Not quite ad-hominem (as it was an attack on the spelling/writing, not the individual member) but certainly that was an odd UT debut.
Please stay on topic; further discussion on this matter will be deleted.
Not quite ad-hominem (as it was an attack on the spelling/writing, not the individual member) but certainly that was an odd UT debut.
Please stay on topic; further discussion on this matter will be deleted.
I'm not sure that many people even realize that it will be elevated there.
I would like to think that Torontonians would be ok with an elevated Eglinton East, but I really don't know. It really is the optimal solution in my mind: a moderate price increase but a substantial service boost compared to at-grade LRT.
But I can see it getting flack from both sides: the pro-LRT crowd will bemoan a cost increase, while the pro-subway crowd will complain that it's not underground (even though it has most of the same advantages to tunnelling).
If Toronto was Vancouver, it wouldn't even be a debate. It would have been the preferred option right off the bat.
nfitz
Superstar
And yet Vancouverites were up in arms when they proposed extending the Skytrain to UBC as elevated, and they wanted it underground.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Where do people get this idea that Toronto is against elevated transit?
Toronto has almost no elevated transit and I don't see any surveys to confirm this argument. Certainly people don't want elevating down the old Eglinton section but I think most Torontonians could care less about elevation thru the Golden Mile.
Also, if Toronto is against elevation so much then why is the UP spur being elevated? Even people dead set against the UP Link haven't brought up it's elevated sections as one of it's many flaws. I don't recall even the Weston community complaining that some of the line was elevated. I think some of the phobia Torontonians MAY have against elevation has nothing to do with the SRT or even the practicality of it but rather when they think of elevation they think of the Gardiner.
The Gardiner is a horrid eyesore and people who don't like elvated transit use it as a false analogy. The entire Spadina ext, except possible the York U section, should have been completely elevated. It would have saved them a cool billion and getting done by the Pan Am Games wouldn't be an issue. The TTC and City Hall have decided long ago that any subway/Metro stlye rapid transit system has to tunneled or it's a no -go...........needless to say, Toronto has choosen the no-go option for the last 30 years.
The Georgetown line is an excellent example of how elevated transit can be built very quickly and at a fraction of the cost and disruption of tunneling.
Toronto has almost no elevated transit and I don't see any surveys to confirm this argument. Certainly people don't want elevating down the old Eglinton section but I think most Torontonians could care less about elevation thru the Golden Mile.
Also, if Toronto is against elevation so much then why is the UP spur being elevated? Even people dead set against the UP Link haven't brought up it's elevated sections as one of it's many flaws. I don't recall even the Weston community complaining that some of the line was elevated. I think some of the phobia Torontonians MAY have against elevation has nothing to do with the SRT or even the practicality of it but rather when they think of elevation they think of the Gardiner.
The Gardiner is a horrid eyesore and people who don't like elvated transit use it as a false analogy. The entire Spadina ext, except possible the York U section, should have been completely elevated. It would have saved them a cool billion and getting done by the Pan Am Games wouldn't be an issue. The TTC and City Hall have decided long ago that any subway/Metro stlye rapid transit system has to tunneled or it's a no -go...........needless to say, Toronto has choosen the no-go option for the last 30 years.
The Georgetown line is an excellent example of how elevated transit can be built very quickly and at a fraction of the cost and disruption of tunneling.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Most of the elevated portion of the line will be the spur that passes through mostly industrial areas of the city near the airport, and/or the junction area where the tracks will fly over/under each other. Other than that I don't see any other elevated portion, unless I've missed something.
In the Spadina extension example provided (and even the outer portions of Eglinton) why wasn't elevated rail even considered (as you said it should have been the preferred option) when it was proposed. Either a) the politicians of the city and/or the ttc planners are anti elevated rail and made the decision on their own or b) the politicians/ttc planners knew that residents would react negatively towards an elevated option
TOareaFan
Superstar
I don't understand this.
Agree with Woodbridge about the elevated portion of UPE.....no one lives (or walks) where it is elevated so no one cares.
The UBC extension was to more or less follow Broadway, correct? If so, I can see why residents would be opposed to it. Broadway in a lot of respects is quite a bit like the central portion of Eglinton. I wouldn't want elevated there either.
If I'm not mistaken, a substantial portion of the Evergreen line is being built as an elevated line. As was the Canada Line. So I think it's fair to characterize the Broadway extension as an exception, rather than a rule. Vancouver is still very much building elevated.
Elevated isn't very well suited to a dense urban fabric, but it's perfectly suited to a strip/big box commercial avenue where grade separation is still needed. Elevated would suit the Golden Mile to a tee. Just look at its relation to the street on the section of the Canada Line along No 3 Rd in Richmond.
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nfitz
Superstar
Pretty much. And I doubt we'd object if someone wanted to build elevated transit up the hydro line from Kipling Station to Eglinton. My point is that both will object equally given a similar situation.
Vancouver may even object more, given the objections there of those that don't want an underground line either in Point Grey.
sixrings
Senior Member
Eglinton from DVP to Kennedy is a industrial area (Golden Mile - Golden Car Dealerships), and Eglinton west of Jane is basically a undeveloped park. Neither are like the central areas of eglinton, or yonge or bloor. So why is elevated a terrible solution?
nfitz
Superstar
It isn't. It's a great solution - I've advocated for this previously. I was only pointing out that Vancouverites are no more willing to accept elevated than Torontonians.
I think Vancouverites are though, unless there's a good reason not to. Elevated seems to be Vancouver's "default option". It's elevated unless there's a good reason not to. Tunnelled seems to be Toronto's default subway option, and at-grade in-median seems to be the default LRT option.
Personally, I think Vancouver's approach makes a lot more sense.
diminutive
Active Member
I think this says more about institutions. Translink doesn't have to worry nearly as much about an angry "clean trains coalition" or "save our Eglinton East" group voting them out of office. Look at all the hullabaloo which has surrounded Bue22/ARL/UPX, a train running in a century old rail corridor, then compare it to the Canada Line. Lot's of people were upset with the cut/covering and elevated sections (at least, that's my impression from Stephen Reese's blog) but they couldn't do much...
By contrast our TTC commissioner came to office riding a wave of NIMBYism against a condo.
sixrings
Senior Member
It makes sense for Sheppard as well...
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Miller can take much of the blame by saying that tunneling is not option and only at-grade LRT creates "great city building" or is the only financially viable alternative.
Vancouver has an unwritten rule..........it's elevated and if you want anything else you have to make the case for it. The Evergreen Line will be completly elevated except thru a very narrow stretch of roadway where there simply isn't enough room. Vancouverites are getting 10 km or elevated transit and one km of tunnel to be built in 3 years for a total of $1.4 billion. This despite the fact that SkyTrain is perceived as an expensive technology. Toronto, on the other hand, is getting an 6km tunnel for $3 billion.
Imagine what Toronto could do with that extra $1.6 billion. The UP Link would be electrified and they could add more stations to make it a complete TTC Metro Line, Egliton would be completely grade separated, the DRL would be already be underway, or the Sheppard West extention from Yonge to Spadina could be completed.
If the TTC and City Hall had the common sense to elevate the entire section less York U, then this conversation about the UP Link wouldn't be going on as electrication would be easily affordable and so would many other stations. Instead of Torontonians getting a airport link that no one save Metrolinx is looking forward to, Toronto could have a 23km extension to it's subway Metro system.
Vancouver has an unwritten rule..........it's elevated and if you want anything else you have to make the case for it. The Evergreen Line will be completly elevated except thru a very narrow stretch of roadway where there simply isn't enough room. Vancouverites are getting 10 km or elevated transit and one km of tunnel to be built in 3 years for a total of $1.4 billion. This despite the fact that SkyTrain is perceived as an expensive technology. Toronto, on the other hand, is getting an 6km tunnel for $3 billion.
Imagine what Toronto could do with that extra $1.6 billion. The UP Link would be electrified and they could add more stations to make it a complete TTC Metro Line, Egliton would be completely grade separated, the DRL would be already be underway, or the Sheppard West extention from Yonge to Spadina could be completed.
If the TTC and City Hall had the common sense to elevate the entire section less York U, then this conversation about the UP Link wouldn't be going on as electrication would be easily affordable and so would many other stations. Instead of Torontonians getting a airport link that no one save Metrolinx is looking forward to, Toronto could have a 23km extension to it's subway Metro system.
BurlOak
Senior Member
to go along with a), I think it was important to not even discuss elevated. The public will not even think of elevated as a solution since it barely exists in Toronto. Thus, politicians, and the senior management of ttc who try to appease them, could make their option preferable by hiding all the better options.