[ssiguy2]

Yes, Denver is getting about a billion from Washington but the rest of the project is being funded by the private partner and the citizens of Greater Denver. The line is part of Denver's Fastracs program which will see new LRT, Bus BRT, and commuter rail corridors through out the metro area and is being financed by a special sales tax in the local area that was approved by the citizens in a plebisite...............in other words, they are getting far, far superior service because they, unlike Torontonians, acknowledge their responsibility to pay for their own infrastructure. They are like the rest of the planet............they know that in order to build things you have to be prepared to pay for them. That is something Toronto hasn't seemed to grasp.

While Denver is getting a large sum from the feds, Queen's Park is paying for the huge improvements to the Kitchener corridor with doubling of the track, a massive Union station expansion, the cost of the Weston and Bloor stations and the entire airport spur line. In other words Toronto is getting everything paid for but the idea of Toronto paying for anything like the electrifcation is heresy. Didn't you know that the rest of the country has to pay for some of their own infrastructure but Toronto is the exception and to ask them to help pay for anything is a bias against Toronto? Torontonians and City Hall don't believe they should have to suffer the indignity of paying for things when Queen's Park and Ottawa are there that can be bitched at. Why the tax payers of from Kenora to Leamington to Cornwall should consider themselves honoured for even being able to pay for Toronto infrastructure. I know that the taxpayers of Ottawa, Kitchener, and London who are fitting the bill of their portion of their planned LRT & BRT systems would gladly forfeit their money to help long suffering Torontonians.

Denver is getting an excellent transit service and Toronto is getting a "service" that is as much transit to Torontonians as the Maid of the Mist is transit to Niagarans because they are employing the tried and true method of instrastructure building............they are paying for it. I guess the old adage is true, you get what you pay for and Toronto is paying nothing for this "service" and that is exactly how much transit they will get out of it.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, Denver is getting about a billion from Washington but the rest of the project is being funded by the private partner and the citizens of Greater Denver. The line is part of Denver's Fastracs program which will see new LRT, Bus BRT, and commuter rail corridors through out the metro area and is being financed by a special sales tax in the local area that was approved by the citizens in a plebisite...............in other words, they are getting far, far superior service because they, unlike Torontonians, acknowledge their responsibility to pay for their own infrastructure. They are like the rest of the planet............they know that in order to build things you have to be prepared to pay for them. That is something Toronto hasn't seemed to grasp.

While Denver is getting a large sum from the feds, Queen's Park is paying for the huge improvements to the Kitchener corridor with doubling of the track, a massive Union station expansion, the cost of the Weston and Bloor stations and the entire airport spur line. In other words Toronto is getting everything paid for but the idea of Toronto paying for anything like the electrifcation is heresy. Didn't you know that the rest of the country has to pay for some of their own infrastructure but Toronto is the exception and to ask them to help pay for anything is a bias against Toronto? Torontonians and City Hall don't believe they should have to suffer the indignity of paying for things when Queen's Park and Ottawa are there that can be bitched at. Why the tax payers of from Kenora to Leamington to Cornwall should consider themselves honoured for even being able to pay for Toronto infrastructure. I know that the taxpayers of Ottawa, Kitchener, and London who are fitting the bill of their portion of their planned LRT & BRT systems would gladly forfeit their money to help long suffering Torontonians.

Denver is getting an excellent transit service and Toronto is getting a "service" that is as much transit to Torontonians as the Maid of the Mist is transit to Niagarans because they are employing the tried and true method of instrastructure building............they are paying for it. I guess the old adage is true, you get what you pay for and Toronto is paying nothing for this "service" and that is exactly how much transit they will get out of it.

Aside from your passionate "ranting" ( ) do you have any idea what sort of cost recovery is expected in Denver? I am trying to understand the different thinking of one municpality spending multiple billions on an airlink and charging $11 for a ride to the airport while we are spending consdirably less and worried that unless we charge $28 we will lose money?

Are there, for instance, some higher levels of operating subsidies available to transit agencies in the states? I have often thought GO (to use an example) being proud that they recover 80 cents on every dollar at the fare box is not really something to be proud of (ie. it is likely just an indicator that you don't have enough service so the little you have is crammed).

 

[ssiguy2]

Another new example of how the UP Link stacks up very poorly............

Orlando has just voted unanimously in favour of an airport link. The line will be 15 miles, almost exactly the same length of the UP Link and will be a maglev {ie monorail} line from downtown to the airport. The trains will run every 15 minutes at 120km/ph and frequency of every 10 minutes all day in both directions. It will have the 2 terminal stations plus 2 inbetween, the exact same as the UP Link but it is part of a PPP and will cost $13 one way. They are hoping to start construction very soon and have it up and running in just 2 years.

Compare that to the much slower UP Link which due to running diesel will be polluting, smelly. loud, slower, twice the cost, and has been a decade in the making. Somehow Metrolinx states that electrification would be impossible within 6 years and cost more than this entire line including stations and vehicles.

Again another example of just how ripped off Torontonians are getting and why the people of Weston and along the entire corridor were dead set against the UP Link. Toronto is paying for an incredibly inferior service with lies all over about the cost of a true rapid transit connection to it's airport.

 

[nfitz]

The line will be 15 miles, almost exactly the same length of the UP Link and will be a maglev {ie monorail} line from downtown to the airport.

If you think that maglev is a monorail, how do you really expect anyone to take any of your comments seriously?

The trains will run every 15 minutes at 120km/ph and frequency of every 10 minutes all day in both directions. It will have the 2 terminal stations plus 2 inbetween, the exact same as the UP Link but it is part of a PPP and will cost $13 one way. They are hoping to start construction very soon and have it up and running in just 2 years.

Isn't this the same company that has completely failed to deliver mag-lev elsewhere? The costs seem absurdly low compared to what mag-lev has cost elsewhere.

Compare that to the much slower UP Link which due to running diesel will be polluting, smelly. loud, slower, twice the cost, and has been a decade in the making.

Polluting? Rail link will be far less polluting than the cars and buses it replaces. And unlike peak-only commuter rail, much of the traffic that is removed is off-peak and permanent. Slower? Sure ... assuming that Orlando's Mag-Lev pipe-dream ever get's built. And a decade in the making ... Orlando has been talking about a rail link to the airport for decades ... surely even if they open their's tomorrow, we already win on this point.

 

[ssiguy2]

FYI...............there are 3 types of monorail transportation, suspended {Wuppertal}, supported {Sao Paulo}, and Maglev......this technology is a maglev monorail system. Just because it doesn't have a tiny thin beam doesn't mean it's not a monorail.

As far UP Link, yes it is a dinosaur before it even gets built. How many cities on this planet actually have a diesel train serving it airport to say nothing of actually still building them. Also, it will get very few cars off the road. Have you seen the ridership estimates, 6,000 a day? That is horrible ridership especially seeing it goes between Canada's largest airport and train station.

 

[EnviroTO]

They should consider another name for suspended and maglev as defining those as a monorail is a stretch. It is silly when you hear claims that monorail is perfect for a route because of monorail being high capacity, fast, able to climb steep gradients, and low-profile in the same argument but then examples provided are completely different technologies. Monorail is not all those things at the same time.

The UP Link is an add-on to an existing non-electrified rail network. I would hazard a guess that outside China there are not many examples of a heavy rail network that is entirely not electrified having an electrified airport rail link. There may be some examples where the train was going to go into an enclosed space where diesel wouldn't work but that is it. The reason the UP Link is being built without electrification is that our network is entirely without electrification and it is entirely above ground with no ventilation issues. When GO / Metrolinx puts a priority on electrification it will add far more value since commuter trains stop and start more than what is meant to be an airport express train.

 

[nfitz]

FYI...............there are 3 types of monorail transportation, suspended {Wuppertal}, supported {Sao Paulo}, and Maglev......this technology is a maglev monorail system. Just because it doesn't have a tiny thin beam doesn't mean it's not a monorail.

There are some experimental maglev systems that have been monorail, but most of the systems operating are not monorail. There's no indication that this Orlando system is going to be monorail as far as I know ... though from everything I read, it's unlikely that this privately self-financed system will ever actually be built.

How many cities on this planet actually have a diesel train serving it airport to say nothing of actually still building them.

Given how many major airports have no rail service, we're still ahead. LaGuardia has nothing. Kennedy has the equivalent of an SRT dumping passengers at a remote subway station at the corner of Finch and 27. LAX has shuttle buses taking people to a nearby LRT station.

Also, it will get very few cars off the road. Have you seen the ridership estimates, 6,000 a day? That is horrible ridership especially seeing it goes between Canada's largest airport and train station.

Still that's an emissions reduction. Sound might be an issue, but you have to be a pretty-extreme anti-transit NIMBY to say that your going to be smelling the trains passing ... I live by one of the busiest GO lines, and I've never noticed any odours.

 

[ShonTron]

Given how many major airports have no rail service, we're still ahead. LaGuardia has nothing. Kennedy has the equivalent of an SRT dumping passengers at a remote subway station at the corner of Finch and 27. LAX has shuttle buses taking people to a nearby LRT station.

Kennedy has rail connections to two subway stations and LIRR that goes into Penn Station, the heart of the city (or to Atlantic Terminal, downtown Brookyln, or Long Island City) - not as dire as you make it out to be.

 

[canmark]

Orlando Sentinal article calls it a "float-on-air train": MetroPlan approves float-on-air train for south Orange

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Another new example of how the UP Link stacks up very poorly............

Orlando has just voted unanimously in favour of an airport link. The line will be 15 miles, almost exactly the same length of the UP Link and will be a maglev {ie monorail} line from downtown to the airport. The trains will run every 15 minutes at 120km/ph and frequency of every 10 minutes all day in both directions. It will have the 2 terminal stations plus 2 inbetween, the exact same as the UP Link but it is part of a PPP and will cost $13 one way. They are hoping to start construction very soon and have it up and running in just 2 years.

Compare that to the much slower UP Link which due to running diesel will be polluting, smelly. loud, slower, twice the cost, and has been a decade in the making. Somehow Metrolinx states that electrification would be impossible within 6 years and cost more than this entire line including stations and vehicles.

Again another example of just how ripped off Torontonians are getting and why the people of Weston and along the entire corridor were dead set against the UP Link. Toronto is paying for an incredibly inferior service with lies all over about the cost of a true rapid transit connection to it's airport.

I find Torontonians in general are pretty much anti-elevated rail, the SRT debacle will do that. Also the 15 mile portion will only be phase one of a 40 mile plan.

 

[nfitz]

Kennedy has rail connections to two subway stations and LIRR that goes into Penn Station, the heart of the city (or to Atlantic Terminal, downtown Brookyln, or Long Island City) - not as dire as you make it out to be.

I mentioned their AirTrain (using the Scarborough RT technology) link to the subway. But good grief, the connection is to the far eastern end of the subway system in Queens. Not very accessible to downtown. Yes, you could change at Jamaica station to take the Long Island Railway to Penn station - but even then it's a 45-minute trip from Penn Station to JFK (as opposed to 65 minutes on the subway). It's still pretty poor. And what about LaGuardia? Ironically the airport with the best service to Manhattan is in New Jersey!

That's a good reminder about the LIRR though - I tend to forget about it.

 

[ssiguy2]

nfitz.....

Thing is is that I don't think the Weston crowd were at all anti-transit NIMBYS. The reality is that the Weston Community wants transit but realize this is not a transit service. They were not asking for an end to the UP Link but rather having it as a transit service for all Torontonians. They didn't want less service but rather much more service but they didn't want the pollution and noise of a train that only the business people who can use it as a tax right-off will be able to afford. Even Metrolinx acknowledges that this is not a transit service for the masses because if it was they certainly wouldn't refer to the riders as "guests". Remember with enhanced GO there are going to be all diesel trains going thru Weston at the rate of one every 4 minutes.

I ussually have limited empathy for people who bitch about trains when they choose to live next to a rail track but when the debates comes down to health then that is different. GO could easily electrify atleast the UP Link within a couple years and there is absolutely NO excuse to not atleast electrify the spur portion now under construction. To not do it while it is still under construction is the height of irresponsibility and incredibly poor planning. Trying to add it later will cost much more than if they do it as part of the original construction. The only reason the spur is not being electrified now is because Metrolinx specifically doesn't want it to be. By having the spur electrified it would add tremendous pressure to electrify the rest of the UP Link to say nothing of the entire Kitchener Line. Metrolinx is not electfifying the line now because it means they can put it off indefinately by saying it's under their "25 Year Plan" which is an affront to Torontonians.

If Toronto was to start to play hardball by using local laws and artificial delays along the route to ensure the line would not be running by the Pan Am games, how many HOURS would it take for Metrolinx is all of a sudden "find" the money to electrify the UP Link and all of a sudden realize it won't take 25 years but rather 25 months?

 

[nfitz]

Thing is is that I don't think the Weston crowd were at all anti-transit NIMBYS.

Then why were they complaining that John Street would be pedestrians only, rather than letting cars through, even though it's only a 150 metre drive to King Street (or is it King Street that will be pedestrian only ... can't keep track). Though they did quickly drop that one and invented this diesel issue, when they realized they could get more traction with that.

I ussually have limited empathy for people who bitch about trains when they choose to live next to a rail track but when the debates comes down to health then that is different. GO could easily electrify atleast the UP Link within a couple years and there is absolutely NO excuse to not atleast electrify the spur portion now under construction. To not do it while it is still under construction is the height of irresponsibility and incredibly poor planning.

Delaying the line by another few years so it can be electrified is also the height of irresponsibility. And the dreadful lies that the Weston community and Mike Sullivan in particular keep trotting out is shameful.

 

[ONE HUMAN]

Denver is building a transit line for it's citizens and Toronto is building a business line for the well healed who can use it as a tax right-off regardless of the fact that the line is being built by the taxpayers of Ontario and any subsidy required to keep it running for the patricians will be born by current GO riders and Metrolinx.

Hmmm, how many spelling mistakes can be made in one sentence? I count four. Probably not a record, but not bad.

Denver is building a transit line for its citizens and Toronto is building a business line for the well-heeled who can use it as a tax write-off regardless of the fact that the line is being built by the taxpayers of Ontario and any subsidy required to keep it running for the patricians will be borne by current GO riders and Metrolinx.

 

[TOareaFan]

Hmmm, how many spelling mistakes can be made in one sentence? I count four. Probably not a record, but not bad.

Denver is building a transit line for its citizens and Toronto is building a business line for the well-heeled who can use it as a tax write-off regardless of the fact that the line is being built by the taxpayers of Ontario and any subsidy required to keep it running for the patricians will be borne by current GO riders and Metrolinx.

I guess that would be important if this was an English 101 forum as opposed to a transit discussion! ssiguy2 may have made a few typos/spelling errors.....can you tell me/us if you really think it had any impact on the ability to understand what he was saying? Is that really how you want your first posting here to be recalled? You really took the time to sign up for this forum just to point out spelling errors?