[dowlingm]

I read a tweet yesterday which noted the UPX being standing room only at 5.30.
https://twitter.com/adamcf/status/731235419573108736

Is anyone aware of crowd management to ensure airport passengers get on at peak now? This was my exact concern when fare reductions were first proposed,

The hand wringing in the media about UPX breaking even is puzzling to me. It's a transit route now, Kathy Haley is gone. The concern should shift to whether in the new situation the route demands more subsidy than other GO service.

 

[rbt]

The onboard announcements needs to be trimmed-back too. Basically, there's way too many of them during the 25-minute journey, especially when one considers that some are now using this as a commuter service.

From the article linked above:
"Metrolinx spokeswoman Anne Marie Aikins said Wednesday that as of the end of April, 6,500 people on average now use the service on weekdays. Including weekends, when ridership is lower, the daily average is about 6,000, she said. About 80 per cent of the riders are coming to or from Pearson International Airport, and the rest are commuters."

I suppose we don't know what the staff/crew/passenger) split is, but many will be passengers and just as many crew taking it for the first time (crew on trans-continental flights change routes frequently; one of the main benefits of the job) benefit from announcements.

 

[rbt]

The hand wringing in the media about UPX breaking even is puzzling to me. It's a transit route now, Kathy Haley is gone. The concern should shift to whether in the new situation the route demands more subsidy than other GO service.

To be fair, the province wants the subsidy for regular GO service to approach $0 too; and they're willing to gift GO an infinite amount of capital funds to make that happen.

 

[andrewpmk]

The UPX should be a warning to Metrolinx when it finally gets around to bringing in fare integration and RER.

UPX is running the exact same schedule it was before the price reduction and at 15 minute all day, 2 way service it very much resembles what RER will be. Nothing has changed except the prices and as the prices fall, ridership soars. It would soar even higher if the fares were reduced again.

Queen's Park and Metrolinx are delusional if they think price doesn't matter. UPX proves that you can run a RER type service but price is more important to many than speed or even convenience. UPX is still to expensive but ML could again lower fares and see what the corresponding increase to ridership will be...........lower prices can result in higher revenues.

Before RER rolls out, ML and QP should use the UPX as a staging ground to realistically forecast ridership on different lines and their price sensitivity. If fares were reduced again by having TTC fares paid automatically deducted from the UPX fares, ridership would probably triple again.

This is the problem with the design of the UPX. Regular GO rolling stock cannot run on the spur that serves Union Station, and so the UPX has limited capacity.

If you charge extremely high fares ($19), the UPX is empty. If you charge low fares, it becomes severely overcrowded and cannot handle the demand. The massive crowds when the UPX was free on Family Day weekend are an obvious indicator of this.

Metrolinx is going to be forced to spend billions rebuilding the Pearson Airport spur for regular GO trains. The UPX should cost the same as taking the TTC for non-Pearson Airport trips and should cost only slightly more for Pearson Airport trips, but is is not feasible to lower fares to TTC levels with the current setup.

 

[vic]

This is the problem with the design of the UPX. Regular GO rolling stock cannot run on the spur that serves Union Station, and so the UPX has limited capacity.

If you charge extremely high fares ($19), the UPX is empty. If you charge low fares, it becomes severely overcrowded and cannot handle the demand. The massive crowds when the UPX was free on Family Day weekend are an obvious indicator of this.

Metrolinx is going to be forced to spend billions rebuilding the Pearson Airport spur for regular GO trains. The UPX should cost the same as taking the TTC for non-Pearson Airport trips and should cost only slightly more for Pearson Airport trips, but is is not feasible to lower fares to TTC levels with the current setup.

Quicker and easier: Increase service frequency, at least in peak times. And when GO RER comes online, then some of that commuter load would likely be brought back to GO.

 

[dowlingm]

Quicker and easier: Increase service frequency, at least in peak times. And when GO RER comes online, then some of that commuter load would likely be brought back to GO.

The single platform at Union is a limitation to pushing head ways down, as is signalling and conflicts with increased service on other lines on the western approach. I think I remember Dan (smallspy) giving a figure of 12 minutes as how much it could be pushed, but the less flex in the schedule the more likely small delays will cascade. Seems easier to find a way to increase capacity with all 3 car sets but I doubt Metrolinx will want more Nippons or even stopgap RDCs, but will rather wait for electrification and either electric Nippons to replace sets going for repower or electric something else (tweaked Bombardier M7s?)

 

[nfitz]

About 80 per cent of the riders are coming to or from Pearson International Airport, and the rest are commuters."

Over the course of the day. So probably 100% from the airport at 10 pm. But at rush-hour ...

Given at rush-hour, commuters have already got the regular GO Trains, I'd think there should be a premium fare for the UP during rush hour.

 

[rbt]

Given at rush-hour, commuters have already got the regular GO Trains, I'd think there should be a premium fare for the UP during rush hour.

I certainly wouldn't argue against time of day pricing. Increase fares by 50 cents, then give a 50 cent discount for use outside rush hour. People significantly prefer a discount over a surcharge, even if the final price is the same.

 

[dowlingm]

To be fair, the province wants the subsidy for regular GO service to approach $0 too; and they're willing to gift GO an infinite amount of capital funds to make that happen.

If anything, hasn't GO's recovery ratio been going down since Kitchener, 2-way all day Lakeshore etc?

 

[TOareaFan]

If anything, hasn't GO's recovery ratio been going down since Kitchener, 2-way all day Lakeshore etc?

It would make sense that the more off peak service you add....the lower your recovery ratio gets worse

 

[rbt]

If anything, hasn't GO's recovery ratio been going down since Kitchener, 2-way all day Lakeshore etc?

It has (up to 22% now from about 10% a decade ago) but not nearly as much as service increases might lead you to believe and most of that subsidy is for feeder bus service including co-fares for municipalities.

Purchasing track corridors helped hold that line down as capital spending to speed up the Union Corridor, electrification, running smaller trains, and having an in-house control centre.

The bulk of GO's capital spending is designed to minimize the operations subsidy. The expectation seems to be that by 2025 GO will have a surplus even with reduced fares and dramatically increased service; of course plans change with governments.

 

[reaperexpress]

I read a tweet yesterday which noted the UPX being standing room only at 5.30.
https://twitter.com/adamcf/status/731235419573108736

Is anyone aware of crowd management to ensure airport passengers get on at peak now? This was my exact concern when fare reductions were first proposed,

Do we know if that was a 3-car train? It's quite possible it was a 2-car set given that there aren't enough 3-car trains to run the full 5-train rotation. Maybe the short-term solution is to re-organize the sets into 6 3-car trains, rather than 3 2-car trains and 4 3-car trains. We might end up with a weird-looking set with three aerodynamic cabs, but that's a small price to pay for the extra capacity.

The hand wringing in the media about UPX breaking even is puzzling to me. It's a transit route now, Kathy Haley is gone. The concern should shift to whether in the new situation the route demands more subsidy than other GO service.

I think it's far too early to start worrying about the cost recovery. The line is still in a state of flux, with management being re-organized (decreasing costs) and ridership growing (increasing revenue). Let's see where we stand a year from now, then decide if there is an issue.

 

[mrxbombastic]

Over the course of the day. So probably 100% from the airport at 10 pm. But at rush-hour ...

Given at rush-hour, commuters have already got the regular GO Trains, I'd think there should be a premium fare for the UP during rush hour.

as someone who takes the UpExpress from Weston GO to Union for my morning commute quite regularly. i can say that waiting for a GO train which runs every hour through the day is laughable. yes it has higher frequency in the morning peak which makes it competitive. but the second it moves to hourly service UPX is the service of choice. It takes me about 1 hour via TTC to get to Queen and Yonge from my home near Scarlett Road and Eglinton Taking 79 Bus southbound and Subway in morning peak. Alternatively if I take the 79 bus going nothbound to Weston GO its about a 5 minute haul to the station and an 12 minute ride to union. I can walk to queen and yonge in under 10 mins and my commute is now around 30 mins.

RER will be competitive to TTC for downtown bound riders in the west. I genuinely enjoy taking UPX (railfanning aside). Even though I bought a metropasss, and will continue to do so, I don't mind paying the extra 5 dollars on my inbound trip in the morning. I know my trip will be on time and without delay (usually) and its very quick. I've told poeple to give it a try and they are now hooked on using UPX as a commuter service too. 3car EMUs with optimized interiors and infill station at Eglinton and Liberty village ,will make UPX an even more valuable asset

The trains are consistently fuller when I hop on in the morning and I have witnessed the spike in ridership first hand.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Was at Bloor Station today trying to figure out which was the Pearson-bound platform with a traveller who had asked for my assistance. We couldn't find any signage indicating which of the three platforms to wait at. The displays were not displaying any platform numbers from what we could see. Metrolinx needs to make this clearer.

 

[ssiguy2]

You guys have completely missed my point.

Considering the horrid ridership, UPX is a scandalous waste of money and heads should be rolling at QP but it was a political line to begin with and the decision to build it was solely due to the Pan Am Games and had nothing to do with proper transit planning.

UPX can, however, prove to be useful as a testing ground for RER. RER is a great idea but there is surprisingly little solid information to back it up. It's relying on the "build it and they will come" transit planning and certainly sometimes it works and other not but it's rare to have an actual system up and running that can be used as a gauge for success and demand. Toronto is in that position with the UPX so they should take advantage of it.

UPX is RER...............all day, 15 minutes each way service using single level EMU/DMU designed trains. ML should be using the UPX as a information gathering tool for a RER roll out............you wouldn't buy a car without driving it first, so why build a RER without gauging public opinion about it?

These new commuters from Weston using the service new riders or just riders switching from GO?.......find out. How are people getting to the stations walking, bus........find out. Would the riders rather have less glamour on their ride with cheaper prices?..............ask them. Has anyone thought of doing a 4 week trial and bringing in fair integration just for this one line where the base UPX price is the same but if you got to the station by TTC then the price will be deducted 100% from the YP fare? ............do it and study the resulting changes {if any} in ridership on the UPX, GO ridership along UPX stations, and changes in TTC bus/subway ridership that serves those stations.

Then try another 4 week trial of a flat etra fee on top of your TTC ticket/pass of an extra $0.50 from both Weston and Bloor to Union and a $6 Pearson fare.........and again study all the stats including ridership along the Spadina subway line. Use it to understand what a corresponding service on the other side of Union to Scar would have on traffic on Danforth and the Y&B station.

Eventually allow another 4 week study on completely free fares with a TTC ticket or pass treating just like any other TTC service and again studying the results.

Find out what all the above trials have on revenues as ML may find that the cheaper the fares go, the more money they have coming in. Use the info to extrapolate how a RER in Toronto would effect TTC traffic point, over crowding, and revenues. ML could actually find out what ALL Torontonians think of the service and not just the ones who can afford to take it. Look at the changes in ridership but also who those new or switched riders are in terms of age, work and destination which will help determine how many Pearson employees would take the service if they could afford it.

The UPX is a wealth of information so take advantage of that opportunity and use it as such.