[unimaginative2]

That's completely ludicris! First of all Metrolinx has already targeted Lakeshore as the first line to be electrified (IIRC). There has to be a reason they chose that line. Even so if we ignored Metrolinx's conclusion what makes you say that Georgetown would be the catalyst for the other lines to be electrified vs any one of the other lines. How would electrifying Georgetown create the demand to electrify the Richmond hill Corridor any more than electrifying the Lakeshore line. It doesn't, and all lines 'could' be seen as 'the' catalyst to get the rest of the network electrified, so in theory using that argument to get Georgetown done first is a fallacy. 1a: What is the benefit of electrifying one line at a time vs doing the entire network all at once?

Because there's intense political pressure to electrify Georgetown immediately and not Richmond Hill or Lakeshore, and once they electrify one line the rest, or at least most of the rest, are sure to follow.

Second. There is no way electrification is done only to Weston, electrification from Union to the Airport is the first, and main segement and it should not, will not be subdivided up in some sort of spite tantrum by Go/Metrolinx. If they only electrify to Weston than the ARL might as well just use the Diesel RDC's that they initially planned as the benefit of having an electric train all but vanishes. A comment like that leads me to think that you aren't really understanding the situation. 2b: Electrify the entire GO network??? are you nuts! Barrie sees what 2 trains each peak (4 total), Bolton would likely have the same number. You want to electrify all the way there for a handfull of trains? You must really believe in that bottomless pit of money then, do you have any idea what it would cost to electrify from Niagra Falls - Toronto - Whitby/Ajax and North to Milton, Georgetown, Bolton, Barrie and Aurora?

I hope you're right, though I don't think it would be some spite tantrum that would make them do it. The political pressure for electrification is in the Weston area, not northwest of there. They might be sorely tempted to take the easy way out and try using dual mode locomotives. The Weston NIMBYs have been calling for just that.

Yes, I'm not sure this is really something to get quite so upset about. I should hope that in the future, we'll see a lot more trains to Barrie and other destinations. All of them should see at least a train an hour. Many European countries have virtually their entire national networks electrified. It's really not that astounding. I'd like to see real high speed rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor, and that would certainly be electrified, and at that point secondary routes in the province should be electrified too. In the interim, VIA trains and routes that see only a few trains a day could reasonably use dual-mode locomotives. When they're talking about hundreds of trains a day, it's not sensible.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

More to the point, will the upcoming service frequencies on the Lakeshore line be delayed.

How many people are the citizens of Weston prepared to kill so they don't have trains in their backyard!

LOL!! ridiculously funny.


the money marked for blue 22 could be used for subway expansion which would carry more passengers and get more people off the road so blue 22 supporters would also be murderers by that logic.

bloody murderers those business class travelers are!

 

[nfitz]

the money marked for blue 22 could be used for subway expansion which would carry more passengers and get more people off the road so blue 22 supporters would also be murderers by that logic.

Perhaps ... but was the amount? $700-million? At the current $300-million per kilometere that would get them from Union Station to ... hmm, King Street if they are lucky.

Though Blue 22 is certainly not the issue here. I don't think anyone around here is dumb enough to complain about a single-car self-propelled vehicle going past every 20-minutes. Good grief, what does that say about the Weston bus that goes past every 6-minutes!

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Perhaps ... but was the amount? $700-million? At the current $300-million per kilometere that would get them from Union Station to ... hmm, King Street if they are lucky.

Though Blue 22 is certainly not the issue here. I don't think anyone around here is dumb enough to complain about a single-car self-propelled vehicle going past every 20-minutes. Good grief, what does that say about the Weston bus that goes past every 6-minutes!

if they build it at-grade, it shouldn't cost as much as say the spadina extension per KM.

also, they used to have a streetcar on weston road and then a electric trolley bus. again, why use existing diesel pollution to justify more? that's like justifying no healthcare for canadians because there's alot of people without healthcare on this planet.

 

[nfitz]

if they build it at-grade, it shouldn't cost as much as say the spadina extension per KM.

Between Union Station and Strachan? Where? There will be about 1,000 GO trains a day between there and Union, on the Milton, Bolton, Georgetown, Barrie, Lakeshore, and Niagara Falls lines. Not to mention VIA services to Kitchener and Brantford. There's not room for a subway line! Perhaps east of Strachan on the Weston sub ... but that seems pretty unlikely too, with Metrolinx's plans for that. The entire money is spent, and all you've got is the subway tunnel leading to the east edge of the Weston subdivision.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Between Union Station and Strachan? Where? There will be about 1,000 GO trains a day between there and Union, on the Milton, Bolton, Georgetown, Barrie, Lakeshore, and Niagara Falls lines. Not to mention VIA services to Kitchener and Brantford. There's not room for a subway line! Perhaps east of Strachan on the Weston sub ... but that seems pretty unlikely too, with Metrolinx's plans for that. The entire money is spent, and all you've got is the subway tunnel leading to the east edge of the Weston subdivision.

well, you can always spend a little more than what would have been spent on blue 22. spend alot of money for a service for a few or spend alot + thensome and create a service that will be used by alot of people.

 

[unimaginative2]

I completely agree with you about Blue 22, nfitz.

If you're talking about the western leg of the DRL, from Front and Spadina it would run west along the Front Street Extension right-of-way. From there, it would either turn north on Dufferin to the rail corridor at Queen and then northwest to Dundas West, which could be a tight fit with all the trains we're packing through that rail corridor, or it would continue west just north of the railway tracks on the same ROW as the Waterfront West light rail to Roncesvalles, and north from there underground to Dundas West.

 

[kEiThZ]

well, you can always spend a little more than what would have been spent on blue 22. spend alot of money for a service for a few or spend alot + thensome and create a service that will be used by alot of people.

That reasoning though is based on the premise that we are undertaking all these upgrades solely to facilitate Blue 22. That's obviously not true. Blue 22 will only make up a small portion of the traffic along that corridor.

 

[nfitz]

That reasoning though is based on the premise that we are undertaking all these upgrades solely to facilitate Blue 22. That's obviously not true. Blue 22 will only make up a small portion of the traffic along that corridor.

A small number of vehicles, and a very small fraction by cars (and emissions). A one-car train is quite different than the 13-unit (12-car, 1-engine) GO Trains.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Because there's intense political pressure to electrify Georgetown immediately and not Richmond Hill or Lakeshore, and once they electrify one line the rest, or at least most of the rest, are sure to follow.

The reason for that political pressure is due to the Weston NIMBY's making it an issue plain and simple. Any town along any of GO's routes could stand up and start demanding that their 'line' be electrified first because it is in their backyard. However we have to look at which one will be the most beneficial to transit in the region and weather or not we should be doing it on a line by line basis or in one be job.

The argument that Weston should be electrified first because it will then encourage electrification on the remaining lines is the fallacious. Any single line can serve as the catalyst for electrification and so Weston should not be a priority simply for this reason.

I hope you're right, though I don't think it would be some spite tantrum that would make them do it. The political pressure for electrification is in the Weston area, not northwest of there. They might be sorely tempted to take the easy way out and try using dual mode locomotives. The Weston NIMBYs have been calling for just that.

Yes, I'm not sure this is really something to get quite so upset about. I should hope that in the future, we'll see a lot more trains to Barrie and other destinations. All of them should see at least a train an hour. Many European countries have virtually their entire national networks electrified. It's really not that astounding. I'd like to see real high speed rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor, and that would certainly be electrified, and at that point secondary routes in the province should be electrified too. In the interim, VIA trains and routes that see only a few trains a day could reasonably use dual-mode locomotives. When they're talking about hundreds of trains a day, it's not sensible.

It's really not a matter of hope. It is plain and simple, if we electrify any portion of the Georgetown corridor we do it from the airport to Union, period. Anything less would be a complete waste of time and money.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

That reasoning though is based on the premise that we are undertaking all these upgrades solely to facilitate Blue 22. That's obviously not true. Blue 22 will only make up a small portion of the traffic along that corridor.

a large chunk of the work is to accommodate blue 22 expansion. GO transit only needs an extra track in some areas, blue 22 needs 2 tracks.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

The argument that Weston should be electrified first because it will then encourage electrification on the remaining lines is the fallacious. Any single line can serve as the catalyst for electrification and so Weston should not be a priority simply for this reason.

the opportunity for electrification is there since there will be massive work/ reconfiguration in the georgetown corridor. it makes sense to do it at the time when all this work is happening.

 

[Epi]

Actually thats not correct.
For the type of service that GO is planning for in the future along the busiest corridors - 4 tracks is the optimal solution. This will allow for a dedicated track for GO trains making all stations stops in both directions and for express trains (GO & VIA) going in both directions without conflicts between the two which = a proper service with ony minimal delays

This doesn't even take into consideration the blue 22 service.

4 tracks removes the need for;
a) any trains to slow down while crossing over tracks (also, this is uncomfortable for passengers) and more importantly
b) having to stop and wait for an express train (sometimes even a freight train, thi should never happen & would never happen if GO owned the corridors) to pass.
This happens all the time on the Lakeshore corridor, even in the 3 track sections - GO trains waiting for VIA trains to crossover in front of them and thats just with hourly service!!

The Lakeshore, Georgetown & Milton corridors will all need this type of set up in order for them to effectively run all day trains making all stops at frequencies in excess of 30 minutes and in addition having all day express trains (and in the case of the Milton line additional track useage in the form of frequent freight trains).

Can you do it with 3 tracks? Yes, but it's not going to be very effective.
The Lakeshore corridor is a perfect example. Yes I know there are a few area's that are only 2 tracks and that leads to delays but I can also tell you that delays happen in the 3 track zones quite often.
How do I know this? Because I operate GO trains for a living and I've witnessed it first hand on a routine bases.
I know exactly what cause the delays.

And yes, I do have a personal bias when it comes to this - cuz I'm tired of people blaming ME for delays that I can't do a DAMN THING ABOUT! News flash people! 2 trains going in opposite direction, can't use the same track at the same time. argh!
...
sorry, just releasing some tension otherwise I love it
(and yes sometimes we're responsible for the delay, but as a percentage of all cases crew related delays account for less than 10% of the total)


In all seriousness, I want to see this system perform as effectively and as optimally as possible. Simply put that won't happen until all major track upgrades are put in place.

It's perfectly possible to run an excellent express/local service with only 2 tracks, but 4 tracks at stations. You just need to completely accurately time the trains. But in the real world, only the Japanese are anal enough to be able to do that perfectly. So yes, in the rest of the world, especially with the volumes GO wants 4 tracks would be much better. Now if only they'd get on electrification that would make things much more efficient too with better acceleration times.

 

[Automation Gallery]

U.K. shows us the value of rail transit

Ever taken a train to the airport? I dream of being able to get to Canada's major airports by train.

In London, England, it is possible to get to the city's major airports by train. The same applies to most major airports in the country. Often, the train is inexpensive and practical. Gatwick, for example, is accessible by train not only from London, but by direct train from Reading and other hubs, allowing connections from all over without entering London or having to take a car further than the nearest railway station, themselves usually well-serviced by buses.

Toronto Pearson, by comparison, is bordered to the north-east by the GO Weston subdivision, a railway line that runs nearly exclusively passenger trains, to the tune of 16 per day. In spite of bordering airport property, none stop at the airport, nor does the recently built airport monorail connect to this high capacity transit link.

http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/506509

 

[nfitz]

There is a direct train from Gatwick to Reading - but, last time I took it at least, it's quite the milk run; and seemed to be used mostly be people travelling around their daily business, rather than people travelling all the way from Reading to Gatwick.

Edit ... I looked up the schedule, to see if anything had changed much. http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/May 09 TTs/FGW09M_TT20.pdf I think the frequency has increased, but the service is still primarily a regional service, rather than a Reading-Gatwick express. About 90 minutes; some service require a change at Redhill.