kotsy
Senior Member
After all renovations are complete, the Bay course will act as a twin to the York concourse including a lower retail level.
Miscreant
Senior Member
Right, but is the lower retail level on the Bay concourse going to be one level below the current concourse? Or is the the current concourse going to be raised one level, and the retail where it is currently?
I'm asking because one planning error in Union was a neglect of the street-level concourse where the Great Hall is in favour of putting everything one level below. The result was that the beautiful Great Hall was virtually unused, and the gritty basement over-used. I'm wondering if this reno is correcting that in some way? I can't quite tell from the maps posted above.
ToroTO
Active Member
No, the GO concourses are still a level below the Great Hall, more or less same level as the VIA concourse. In the end, the Bay concourse will same level as the subway/Path section while York will be a bit higher. You can still completely avoid the Great Hall which will remain mostly for VIA though there will be more connections to it and increased retail/food on either side.
Miscreant
Senior Member
Interesting. Thanks for the reply. I'll have to wait and see, but that does concern me, since I'd like to see the Great Hall act as the heart of Union. I guess it just can't happen.
ToroTO
Active Member
Just note that the Great Hall and Front St. are at the same level as the actual train tracks, all access to the tracks is by going underneath (provided by the slope down heading south from Front St.), so it isn't possible to have concourses at the same level. There will be access from the Great Hall to the GO and retail concourses through the spaces previously occupied by Harvey's on the west and the security office on the east.
Miscreant
Senior Member
Hmm, yeah. Points well taken. As long as the Great Hall gets more foot traffic by being integrated more into the flow of the station, I'll be happy. It needs to be used. It's great.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Been pondering whether the choice to refer to GO's concourses as "Bay" and "York" was the best choice, especially for people less familiar with downtown streets. Perhaps "East" and "West" would be more intuitive? Especially if you consider the VIA concourse to be the "Centre" concourse.
Good signage will still have to point out the ways to Front, Bay, and York streets and Bremner boulevard, so it's not really doing double duty.
But "Bay" and "York" might be more intuitive for those who are familiar with downtown streets.
Just wondering...
Good signage will still have to point out the ways to Front, Bay, and York streets and Bremner boulevard, so it's not really doing double duty.
But "Bay" and "York" might be more intuitive for those who are familiar with downtown streets.
Just wondering...
CDL.TO
Moderator
I was working with some people from the UK a few years ago and they went to Union station to check it out. The following day I asked what they thought.
Them: "It wasn't very nice"
Me: "True, the renovations will really help. But what did you think of the Great Hall?"
Them: "We couldn't find it."
Entering in the typical below-grade PATH/TTC/Bay street entrance way, they found themselves in the GO Concourse. From there, if you're not looking for signs saying "VIA", the Great Hall is both irrelevant and nearly impossible to find.
IMO, the biggest thing that will be done to increase the relevance of the Great Hall is when they back the ground floor of the east wing (Scotiabank offices) and turn it into a corridor and station space, like how it is in the west wing, as shown in the plans posted above. That way a new entrance to the station will be created right at the corner of Bay and Front on the ground level (not just below grade as it is now), which will add a new "route" though the great hall between Bay street and the York Concourse and the Skywalk.
Also, when the new escalators from the Great Hall down to the Bay and York concourses open up (such as the ones where the Harvey's used to be), I think that will help as well. It's all about creating routes that are both efficient for travellers AND which route through the Great Hall.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
Not sure how old you are and I apologize if this is just telling you something you already know....but when SkyWalk opened it was far from dead space....the entire south side was lined with retail (food outlets, etc)....it all died though. See in the early days of SkyWalk the crowds were too big and no one could actually stop at the retail as there was just this mass of humanity pushing people to SkyDome or Union (depending if you were pre or post game).
Now, kinda ironically, retail would not work because the crowds are so small.
In terms of levels at Union Station, the new York Concourse is lower than the level of the VIA Concourse, allowing it to have a higher ceiling than the VIA Concourse. There's a gently sloped ramp between them at the south end. It's also higher than the Front Street moat level, so there's a sloped ramp between those levels too. You're going to find a lot of up-and-down at the station.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Like you've said, it died when the novelty/popularity of SkyDome wore off soon after the early/mid-90s recession. Incidentally, given UP and the Station St. office development, it might see its' best days yet.
AoD
TOareaFan
Superstar
could be.....with the 2 office buildings and hotel west of Simcoe now connected to the SkyWalk...it may actually start to operate like the rest of the Path system and there may be foot traffic through there on a steady/daily basis....it may see a re-birth of retail!
Mercator
New Member
So from what I get from all that I have read on this thread and UT's article is that we are facing potentially 6mos.+ (between Pan Am games and 2016) of little to no food/retail in Union Station?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Once the exterior streetgrid got built south of the tracks (bremner) you no longer really had to go through the Skywalk to get from Union to the Skydome, so a lot of traffic got "diverted"
TOareaFan
Superstar
I would bet you there is an overlapping of inaccuracy/estimation around these dates and that little in the way of food/retail disruption occurs....ie. I bet no further retail is forced to close until they are open, or very close to open, in the new retail.