CDL.TO said:
Wait a sec. Where did that image come from, Enviro? I don't recall seeing it before. It seems to include the DRL. Did you make it?
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Yes. I took the image from the Union Station Revitalization project and added the DRL to illustrate how easy it would be to put it in.
 
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EnviroTO said:
Yes. I took the image from the Union Station Revitalization project and added the DRL to illustrate how easy it would be to put it in.
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Ahh so it's not an official render. You had me going for a moment there as well. It looks simple but we really don't know what is underneath our streets to be honest. Considerations have to be made for building foundations, support for structures above while construction is happening, utilities, etc etc. There's the issue of the water table (at what point have we dug so deep that we hit water), IIRC NY is built on pretty solid rock unlike Toronto's messy wet soils. These aren't things that can't be overcome if enough money is thrown at it but is it worth it to go through all that expense vs simply choosing a different alignment? You also have to consider passenger flows.
 
It's pretty infuriating to have to explain this all over again, but this was studied in detail when the DRL was first planned in the 80s. Nothing at Union Station has changed since then to make these plans no longer buildable. There is enough room under the moat of Union Station to build two additional platforms--that's two in addition to the one that we have today--as well as two more tracks. No complex construction. Deep level tunnels. Just simple digging down. It's no more complex than the additional platform they're currently building, only a little bigger. There are official renderings, and they differ from Enviro's plan only in that they include two more platforms and not one.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
Ahh so it's not an official render. You had me going for a moment there as well. It looks simple but we really don't know what is underneath our streets to be honest. Considerations have to be made for building foundations, support for structures above while construction is happening, utilities, etc etc. There's the issue of the water table (at what point have we dug so deep that we hit water), IIRC NY is built on pretty solid rock unlike Toronto's messy wet soils. These aren't things that can't be overcome if enough money is thrown at it but is it worth it to go through all that expense vs simply choosing a different alignment? You also have to consider passenger flows.
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Just to be perfectly clear, all of these considerations were taken into account during the original DRL planning. They're very much aware of what is under Front Street, and they knew that we could add the DRL on the same level as the existing subway without any problems.
 
Back on the actual topic of the Union Station revitalization, this is pretty disappointing architecture. It looks bland and cheap--are those bare concrete columns?--and these are just the renderings. I thought that the whole advantage of getting rid of Union Pearson was that we didn't have to buy into the cheap designs provided by the consortia. This doesn't look any better than what they were offering.
 
unimaginative2 said:
Back on the actual topic of the Union Station revitalization, this is pretty disappointing architecture. It looks bland and cheap--are those bare concrete columns?--and these are just the renderings. I thought that the whole advantage of getting rid of Union Pearson was that we didn't have to buy into the cheap designs provided by the consortia. This doesn't look any better than what they were offering.
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I don't think we can say we've seen final designs at this point.
 
EnviroTO said:
Yes. I took the image from the Union Station Revitalization project and added the DRL to illustrate how easy it would be to put it in.
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Only easy on paper:rolleyes: They still have to move storm drains, wiring and figure out what else is below the ground that isn't in any city files. Another problem would be that if they go further down they may hit the water-table and the platform could flood.

I know the abandoned TTC tunnel to union is at this level and it floods now and again.
 
I'm not sure whether you have my posts on some kind of ignore list or something, but as I've said probably about a hundred times, this was studied and designed in detail, and you wouldn't have to build on a lower level. There's enough space for two more platforms and two more tracks on the same level as the existing station without affecting the foundation of Union Station.

Besides, relocating underground utilities isn't all that hard. They've already relocated the Front Street interceptor sewer for the Union second platform project.

I don't think we can say we've seen final designs at this point.
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I hope so, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of some kind of design competition for the project. Right now it looks like Vaughan Mills mall.
 
Komiksulo said:
Abandoned TTC tunnel? Please explain. I hadn't heard of this before.
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When Union subway station first opened, it was connected to Union railway station by a tunnel.

A quick citation...

http://www.infiltration.org/utility-union.html...

At the end of this series of tunnels, we found a cement stairway leading up to a three-foot-tall wooden door held shut by two iron bars. Carefully withdrawing these bars and setting them aside, Victor and I emerged onto a gangplank near the top of a stairway and a disassembled escalator. We wandered down the stairs, leaving footprints in the dust. At the base of the stairs, a dark, decrepit hallway with a very shiny black floor stretched out before us. Victor pointed out that the floor was all wet. "Yeah, weird," I agreed, as I put my foot down on what I expected to be a solid floor and my leg plunged through the murky black water up to my knee. After I withdrew my soaked foot from the water and wringed my socks out, Victor and I concluded that (a) I was an idiot and (b) we wouldn't be exploring that tunnel without a dinghy.
When we came back a few weeks later to take pictures, however, we found that our flooded tunnel had somehow been drained. The floor was still slimy and the place was still unlit, but we hauled out our flashlights and went to take a look. After a short way, the tunnel turned 90 degrees to the right, and then continued on an upward slant for some distance. At the end of the hallway, a set of cement stairs led up to a door. Checking this door, we found it led directly out into fare-paid area of the subway station! I won't even attempt to map this madness or guess what purpose this connection once served, but it's nice.
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union-slime.jpg
 
CodeMonkey said:
Only easy on paper:rolleyes: They still have to move storm drains, wiring and figure out what else is below the ground that isn't in any city files. Another problem would be that if they go further down they may hit the water-table and the platform could flood.

I know the abandoned TTC tunnel to union is at this level and it floods now and again.
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I'm always amused by this line of reasoning ('this project or that alignment is just about impossible because we apparently can't know what's underground').

Really, what do people think could be a few feet under there that isn't found under the rest of Front Street or sites nearby, many of which have undergone massive construction projects in recent years, and some of which are under construction right now? Aurora Borealis? At this time of year? A this time of day? In this part of the country? Localized entirely under Union Station?

Or Morlocks, perhaps? If we find Morlocks will they build the DRL for us?
 
scarberiankhatru said:
I'm always amused by this line of reasoning ('this project or that alignment is just about impossible because we apparently can't know what's underground').

Really, what do people think could be a few feet under there that isn't found under the rest of Front Street or sites nearby, many of which have undergone massive construction projects in recent years, and some of which are under construction right now? Aurora Borealis? At this time of year? A this time of day? In this part of the country? Localized entirely under Union Station?

Or Morlocks, perhaps? If we find Morlocks will they build the DRL for us?
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There is nothing under there that money can not overcome that much is true. However you cannot deny that there can be and are undocumented structures all over this city, didn't they discover parts of old Union Station while building the PWC tower? Did anyone expect that? We as spectators simply do not know what is there. For me the biggest issue though would be the water table.

I was not aware that the city did study the feasability of such an arrangement though.
 
I was not aware that the city did study the feasability of such an arrangement though.
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Yes, exactly! The city studied rebuilding the Union subway station with two more platforms and two more tracks on the same level as the existing station between the existing tracks and the foundation of the railway station. It is feasible.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Or Morlocks, perhaps? If we find Morlocks will they build the DRL for us?
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If we did get Morlocks, they would probably go on strike:rolleyes:


CDL.TO said:
Found it...

Best source on the abandoned TTC tunnel is Steve Munro's post on the topic:

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=649

Includes plans. Photos seem to currently be offline.
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Additional Photos:
unionbatch2p1010023.jpg


unionbatch2p1010024.jpg


unionbatch2p1010029.jpg




The pizza place just before the GO Concourse on the lower level of union was the original access to the TTC, if you ever go in there you'll see the floor dips a bit where the escalator and stairs would be.


But anyways these tunnels seem to flood and drain mysteriously from somewhere. What's going to prevent the lower platform from possible flooding is my biggest question? Even with pumps, the water level can still rise.
 
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